? ?? I've had a number of God

moments in my life

?There was one day when I woke up, went in the bathroom, I didn't recognize who

I was.

That's how

bad my depression was.

  

? ?? ?

?I needed meaning

in my life.



?Depression  not this wispy thing out there. It was, to

me,

it was a real person.

And he

worked for the Prince of Darkness. 

?I'll be a Gideon. 

That

was a turning point for me, but God

had another turning point.

?When I'm with God,

good things happen. When I'm not with

God,

bad things happen. It's as simple as that. 



 

 

? When I went into jail,

it was a benefit for the inmates.

It was more of a benefit

me because I was

talking to people

about Jesus.

?God is a

God of a thousand

chances.

? All right, ?so welcome to From Surviving to Living, the Spotlight Series, and

we

have a very

exciting

episode  interesting guest. I am here with Patrick Day, who is

the

author of nine books, and he is

also, or was, a  credentialed

correctional chaplain. Try saying that three times fast,

um, who has ministered

to hundreds of individuals

in one on sessions and thousands in group settings.

And we are going

to have an

overarching

question of how can personal struggle professional expertise converge to offer hope

and guidance for those battling addiction and depression.

And for those of you interested in helping.  Individuals like that as

Pat has we'll be discussing

what

that looks like as

well. So 

Patrick's Journey: Finding God and Battling Depression

tell tell us a little bit about

who you

are

and where you're from and how

what led you up to? This work that you

do 

Okay.  As

you

say

I'm a credential chaplain correctional chaplain

and probably later in

the interview, we'll find out

the strange way that happened.  I've had a number of God

moments in my life

and where I don't know where

I'm going, but God knows where I'm going. And, uh, so for those listening, uh, 

what I

found in my life

is you

don't have to figure it all out.

You don't have to say, if I

want to God,

well, let's see, how am

I going to do that?

If you pray and you ask God to give

you guidance,

uh, you'll be surprised who shows

up in your life, uh, what happens to you.

? ?? ?

?So, along

those lines, uh,  I

moved, when I moved to Willmar,

Minnesota,

uh, from

Minneapolis. As a matter of fact, I lived, uh, four blocks from where this studio

is. 

And so I'm familiar area.  uh, so Wilmer was

the last place

I ever

would have gone because

I had an ex wife who grew up

there.  Uh, but anyhow, when I went there, God

sent me there for

a reason

because I was

to meet a

person

named Myron

and he was

going to preach the gospel to me.

I grew

up

as a Catholic. I never knew there were any

decisions to make.

I 

mean, I was baptized as a Catholic. as a baby, so therefore

I was saved.

That's what

I thought. 

Sure.

And he explained to

me that, well, that isn't the

case. And so, uh, because of him, I became a born again believer, uh, April 2nd, 1982.  And,

uh, 

so life went on in Wilmer.

Uh, my

wife

and

I both worked at a

two year college, Ridgewater College. She was an instructor there. I was the dean of instruction. a matter of fact, uh, she reported to

me.

Uh, but, uh, thank heaven she was a great teacher. And I never

had any issues with her. 

up, I was supervising,

uh, more

than a hundred people, thirty five technical  Uh,

we had good

friends in, in Willmar,

Uh, belonged to a good church in

Willmar, and then

my

wife and I both took, uh, early retirement,

And,

uh, 

And we had

one son who was living in Birmingham, Alabama, and we had

one son in Phoenix, Arizona. So, we figured, well, we need to get closer to Minneapolis, uh, so

that we can be close to an airport. 

So, uh, we

left a city of 30 years,  of 30 years.

Which I

found out soon,

that is not something you want to do. 

You did that

all at once? Retired and moved? Oh yes. 

In one shot.

Wow.  

well, I'd never lived in a city 30

years, 

for 30 years before. I'd never worked at one

job for 30 years

before.

How did I know?  

And so I moved

to, uh, Buffalo.

All of

a sudden,

I don't know anyone.  I

supervise anyone.  There used to be a hundred people that somewhat listened to what

had to say, some

more than others. Now I'm in, in Buffalo, no one gives

a rip. What I say, I don't know anyone. I don't know anything.

I'm not familiar. And uh, I went into what's called situational depression. In other

words, there's

a situation that caused depression. 

And what year

was that? 

? ?? ?

?That was,

uh, 

2005. 

Okay. 

And so, uh,

situational depression,

if it's severe enough, can lead to

what's called clinical depression,

which is a mix

up of brain chemicals.

And that's what happened to me.

My brain chemicals are still mixed

up.

For me, which

is another book I wrote

called How I Escaped

from Depression, 

uh, But, 

um,  I didn't want to take medication. I kept

trying to stay away from it,

um,

and things were just careening. Uh, there was one day when I woke up, went in the bathroom, I didn't recognize who

I was.

That's how

bad my depression was. 

Uh, 

so

what happened is,

uh,  The

whole depression thing is

whole other story. 

How

long did that, that last?

Four

and a half years.

Okay. 

? ?? ?

?Uh,

so, in effect, uh,  went into a jail time in Litchfield, Minnesota. And every once in a while I get a smart aleck.

And, uh, this

smart aleck

says, well, why

should we listen

to you?

Have you ever

been in jail? And I

said to him, yes. I said, I've been in a jail worse than you

are. Worse than you are right now. Oh, he said, where's that?

I said,

depression. I

said,

I would have traded places with any of not even

knowing what you did, if I could free of depression. 

And, he looked at

me, and I think he

might have had a brush with depression.

He looked at me and

he said, good answer.  Uh,  in effect, it was. I had, uh, I didn't want

go

anywhere. I would

in a chair, uh, like I

was in a coffin. Uh, it was terrible.

How did your

wife respond to all of that? It must have been difficult for her.

Did she also, um, maybe be affected with some depression?

Or what did that look like? 

No, my wife is much more resilient

than I am. Uh, she got along pretty well. Um,  She was a, a teacher, you know, so she had classrooms,

but

our situations were

a little bit different. I

was involved in a number of things in, uh, Wilmer that she wasn't. I, I belonged to a Bible study  years, which

is quite

unusual. 

Um, but,

no, she was not hit that hard, but it was hard on her. I felt sorry for 

her, 

but I couldn't do anything. So I was in jail. I needed meaning

in my life.

And the question becomes, where's that meaning

going to come from?

I'm

sitting there and

I'm afraid. I'm

going to be depressed for the rest of my life.

I'm never going to find meaning in my life. 

And I

came to understand that I had two choices.

I could either curse God and die, which Job's wife told him to

do, or I could come closer to Jesus,

uh, than

I ever have before. You

And, uh, the Holy Spirit helped lead

me down that way.

And, to me, there's nothing, nothing worse than depression. 

look back on my life, and

I'm glad I

went through that depression. Horrible as it was. Praying for trucks to run over me. That's how bad it was. 

Uh,

I didn't

attempt

suicide.

Uh, but I just, if a truck would have

gone off the, road and hit me, I would have been happy. 

Um,  so how was I going to find

meaning?

And, uh, that's

when, uh, I, depression to me,  uh, I referred to depression with a capital D. Depression  not this wispy thing out there. It was, to

me,

it was a real person.

And he

worked for the Prince of Darkness. 

And that's

I was battling, this terrible darkness.  And so, uh, my life was

going down,

down, down, down. 

And, uh, I was afraid it was just going to keep going down,

down, down,  until, 

you know, there was

nothing

left.

Yes.

And 

I like what you said at the very beginning when you said, we don't.

have to know the

ins and outs about how something is to be done.

We

simply

recognize something that needs to

happen.

And

I have found often that

acknowledging to God, 

I think that this is something you would like me to do, a direction

I'd like to take.

And I

have no idea what that looks like.

I can't set the

agenda because I have trouble even picturing it, but I

agree

with you.

That sounds good. And God has to take it from there. 

A. ADW Tozer once said that if you think you are where you are now

because you have manipulated and controlled the outcome,

you are probably not. where God wants you to be.

So 

then,

um, what happened after this

four,

four and a half years  that led you in a

new

direction? 

? ?? ?

?Well, that's a real good question,

Ollie. 

A New Chapter: Embracing Ministry and Writing

uh, I had, uh, I guess I would call them turning points.

And, uh,

one turning point is

something that happened.  Uh,  as a result, I'm here today talking

to you.  There's a guy named uh, Roger Lundin. He's in my prayer group at church now.

And he's

got, uh,

aphasia. 

And, uh, he'll pray, but no one can understand what he's saying.

And, uh, he's

got some

dementia. But Roger was a Gideon.

And he

and I

both went to the Covenant Church in

Buffalo.

And one time, and

I didn't know him,  imposing man, and,  day after church,

I'm walking out

of

church, and there in front

of me is standing Roger Lundin, and

I can't

get around him. 

at me,

and he said, Do you know what a Gideon is? And, well, I did. I said, yes, I do.

He said, Uh,

I think you

should become a Gideon. 

And, uh, Without getting

into a  All the rest of

discussion, I realized there was no getting by Roger Lundeen.  

I 

was either going to be a Gideon, Or I

would have him hounding me

the rest of my

life. 

And so,

uh, I

said, okay, I'll be a Gideon. 

That

was a turning point for me, but God

had another turning point.

Expanding Outreach: Jail Ministries and Beyond

 So

became a Gideon

and Roger was kind of my sponsor and

mentor. And Roger says, oh, by the way, now that you're a Gideon, You need to have some sort of

ministry. And I said, well, what ministries are

there, Roger?

? ?? ?

?well, you could be a church speaker

to make presentations

five minutes, to get donations. I said, 

no, don't

want to do that. He says, or you could have a, uh, a card

ministry where you bring

cards into churches.

and you have to keep track of all the churches. Do they have

enough cards for weddings, funerals, and whatnot, which is another way of

getting money for the Gideons.

Uh,

said, I don't think I want to do that either. 

And, uh, he

said, well, you could bring, uh,  into hotels and motels. And he said, everyone does that.

All

Gideons do that.

And then he said, or you could get it in a jail ministry. And

I said, what's, what's that?

He said,

well. you

could join

the jail ministry team and you go in once a month

and with a partner and

deliver a Bible lesson.

And so I said, I'll do that. 

So it  know, what else am I going to do?

But that's

when God got ahold of me.

And as I started working with inmates  and,

understand, stood the

horrible lives

they have had

to get to the  dysfunctional  uh, drugs,

the

wrong people. They follow the wrong people.

In some cases, they were the wrong people that other people were following. And so I developed like a bond. I, I,

I, I wanted to

understand these inmates.  And so that's how

I initially

got into jail ministry.

The second

thing was I had a friend, Myron, who

led me

to Christ.

and he

was a,

an

uh, artist and he now retired.

and

he's now a portrait artist and oil painting. But at the time he did illustrations.  actually were partners in an ad agency for a while.  thought,

uh, that was before this point

in time, but I thought, Oh, if I could just  if I could just

draw.  And,

uh, 

and I tried and he

tried to teach me, but that was not

my

shtick. 

And then I remember something God had told me years back.

With words you

will serve me, with images. You don't know what that means in your life, but I

do. That's what

he told me years before. 

And then,  me to write my first book. 

was called, Too Late in the

Afternoon.

And that book, and being a Gideon, started moving me out

me out of depression. 

And so, I,

I came

to realize with that first book,

of the nine

I've written, that, The day I stopped writing

and the day

I died

would be the same day. 

That was my meaning, that was

my ministry.

So I had that, and

then I started getting into business coaching  my experience in

and with the

college. And so now all of

a sudden I had three meetings in my life.

Jail ministry, Gideon's

meetings  combined together, and then

the

writing and 

then the

um, 

I guess those are the two that I, oh and

then the business  

you were not a chaplain at this time,

right? 

? ?? ?

?No, I was not.

Uh, And so, uh, how

did I become a chaplain? 

Um, well,  things were going

better,

but I realized that I was kind of just coasting.  I'd hit a

plateau. So, My life went down

like that, then it came up, then

life

was so much better and I was kind of at a

plateau.

uh, but I

wanted to get closer

to the 

men and women that I

was dealing with. I wanted to understand them

better. And so,

um,  that's when I, I, uh, ended

uh, writing a

uh, writing a present to inmates within the

to present to inmates

visit www. FEMA. gov Which is, uh, the

county

that I'm from. And, I just came up with a real catchy title for that book. It was called, How to Stay Out of Jail.

Laughter.  And it

was not a

story as such.

There were some stories in there, like, there's a story

about Tyler.  uh, he had a quote on  the cover of the book.

Uh,

when I'm with God,

good things happen. When I'm not with

God,

bad things happen. It's as simple as that. 

And for Tyler,

it was. 

uh, so anyhow, I

did this book. 

and, uh, I brought it

to the library. 

And

then I asked if, uh, I make a presentation in the jail. And so they said, sure, Friday night. Uh,

and at that point

time, it was the only time it ever happened to me.

me, when the men

and the women

were both in

the room at the same time. 

That is unusual. 

That is unusual, but the men were separated from the women by  or four rows,

but why

they did it that way,

I

don't know, but they,

and, and

it wasn't that anything happened there,

but it's just

I,

in, in all my presentations,

I never had that happen.

So anyhow, there was about

anyhow, there was about 30 people

in there,  was in a room where there was a camera,

and,

uh, I knew that. And

there was a guard there

that night called Joe. 

and, uh, when

we got

done, um, Uh,

Joe said,

I talked to some of the

men

that were

going back and forth to

the bathroom and they said it

was a really good

presentation.

Well, he didn't have

talk to

the men, he was watching the presentation. And he said, you should take that

show on the road.  And I said, what do you mean?

? ?? ?

?He said, well you could give a presentation like that to county jails throughout Minnesota. And

you could go to, like, one a month,

Then

take a month off,

next year go to the same jails, maybe add on

a few. 

And it's one of those

things where,  talk about wanting to do something for someone but how do you do it? 

that's

where I, that's what I said to him. How's that gonna happen?

And he said, well,

he said, why don't you talk to Sergeant Flesher,

who was the program sergeant.  And I said, okay. So I met with her. But

had talked to her ahead of time.

So when I

came to talk

to her, she was ready for me. She had a packet like that, which was every county jail in the state of Minnesota, with the program directors, with the program staff, and their phone numbers, and

their emails. 

Wow. And 

I thought,

wow,

I don't have to do

all this research.

And I thought, well

that's pretty good. But I started thinking,

okay, so now I've got to

contact them.

And, you

know, contacting people cold is

not easy.  And then I

noticed some of the jails were highlighted. 

And,

uh,

I didn't

have to ask She told me.

She said the

jails that are highlighted, she said,

I

know the program directors at those

jails.

You can

tell them Sergeant Flesher told you to call. 

And

they'll let you in. 

I thought. And then I noticed that

some of

them had an asterisk after the highlight.  And I didn't

have to ask her,

because she told me that,  next, she said, those, that asterisk, those are people that have already

talked to you.

talked to them

about you. 

And so,

all of a sudden, 

all

those jails were open

to me. 

Wow.

And  I assume

you called the jails, like she said, the ones that she had called ahead for

you and already talked to you, and

the others.

The Impact of Writing and Ministry on Recovery

 And how soon? 

were you this

new

role of

going to those different  

One month. 

Fast.

Yeah. 

Because

they

came so easily.

Yeah. I mean, it was like,

talk about having the skids

greased. I mean, I would just call up

and say, Sergeant Fletcher told me to give you a call. Oh, good. 

And

it was, you know,

when

can you come here? And then I would take those books with me.  Now,  these books cost money. 

So, how was I going to get the money?

? ?? ?

?Well,

as it ended up, when into the jail, 

I wanted

to give, I

got,  I got a hold of some friends of mine

and asked,

Would you partner

with

me? Well,

put in the same amount of money and to buy these books,  which I had self published

through a company in Minneapolis. I said, buy

the books

and then I can go in.

No, actually I'm wrong

on that. The first wrote too late

the

afternoon, I, I self pub, through a self publishing, then I became a publisher. So I started all of a sudden I've got another meaning in my life.

So, uh, I could produce the books

myself.

And, but I never

made a profit off of them. just purchased them at cost.

So I brought those in 

And now I

figure, well,

uh, these

friends are, are not going to the money 

that I'm going

to be able  you know, go to all these jails.

So as

it ended

up, there was a pastor

of

Assemblies of God Church in Buffalo. And every once in

a while I, I went there. 

one point in time,

I was  a  Pentecostal wannabe,

And I started going to a Pentecostal church where my son

lived in Northfield.

And I thought, Oh, that's a side of me that's been missing.

the emotional side of Christianity.

And so, uh, I got enamored with Pentecostals,

got to know this Pastor Bill take him out

to play golf, buy his green fees for him.

and I'm telling him, and

he says, Why don't

you just start a ministry in

this church? He said and we can be a 

401, what is, you must know

that 

that's

I don't even recall right, 501? Yes. C3? A non profit, essentially. Yes, yes, 

a non profit, ran it through the

church and uh 

a friend of mine who's quite wealthy. 

Every he fifteen hundred dollars 

And then

there were

three churches, one

in willmar

and two

in Buffalo,

They gave me money. Then individuals gave money. And all

of a sudden, I could get

all sorts of books and I

would go to the Minneapolis Adult and Teen Challenge.

And I'd give a presentation to more than 300

men and women.  Now there the men and women  but the men sat

and

the women sat over there.

They were physically, uh,

different sections. So, um,

all of a

sudden, 

I've,

I'm bringing books. I

was the book guy. And

they, they,

and

the

book I was bringing was How to Stay

Out of Jail.

And then I

wrote another book

called, that was kind of out

of Romans 7, Stop Doing What

You Don't

Want to Do.  And then I wrote a third book  called,

uh,  uh, Seven Steps to

Turn Your Darkness into Light. So

those were my three

jail books.

And, but when I

would call up,

and get

into a jail.

They remember that first book. Oh, you're the how to

Out of Jail guy. 

So didn't make 

any 

difference what book

I brought. I was the How to Stay

out of jail guy. 

Now how did you get to, uh, Teen Challenge? Was that something you

were already doing with your friend from church or as a Gideon?

No, not at

all.

This pastor Bill  was, a a key person. And so,

uh, he knew the

head of

Teen Challenge in

the Minnesota district. 

And so, he worked with, so

I went and

talked to this

guy. And when I talked to him, his last name was St. John. 

talked to him,  and  I said, and he explained, you know, there are four adult and teen challenges in Minnesota, and

I said, 

uh, he said, if you call them

up, you

can use my name.  And

he wrote a letter of endorsement for me. 

Wow.

So all

of a sudden, when I say, call up,

and I said, Clarence

St. John told me to call. 

the,

he

was the, 

the head  the, uh,  adult and teen challenge in

Minnesota. And so,  he would, yeah, he was the head of the Assemblies

district, Minnesota district.

And when he endorsed

me, I could get into any adult and teen challenge. 

It was like the, it was like

the jails. Just call up, oh, when can you come?  

I'm  there was a  in how

you presented to the two different groups.

um, teen challenge versus. The presentations you

were

giving in

jail

Diving Deeper into Adult and Teen Challenge

.  

Oh, yes.

Um,

sorry to shuffle my  Um, 

Yes. Quite different.

Uh, for two reasons. Uh, now the commonality was addictions.

Mm-Hmm. 



So anyhow, 90 percent of the

men,

And

I found for the women, it was more like 95 percent are in there for drugs. 

of one

of those or another.

Using, selling,

distributing, moving.  Um,  so

that was a thing,

But what was uncommon, 

well, another common is that a lot of people in Adult and Teen Challenge had gotten downward departures, which means 

their sentence was stayed if they

went

and did something. to redeem themselves. And Adult and Teen Challenge was known

as a place

where you went to stop

using.  But the other, the difference was,

is that when I went into the jails, I was talking to a lot of people that weren't saved. In Adult and Teen Challenge, 

most of the people were saved.

That was kind of a condition for getting in, but there's still people

in there that weren't saved. 

And, uh,  so there was a different message.

And the Holy

Spirit,

you know, gave me what

to say to each group. And it quite different.

uh, though I

hadn't planned it quite different, but,

uh,  I remember

one

of the things that I, I

said to

the Adult and Teen Challenge.  I said,  and, and what

happens is, is that someone in

a jail or someone in the public that's using,  uh, 

of own willpower, 

80 percent of them, if they stop using, 80 percent of them will

be

using

within a year.

For those that that are in

jail, 80 percent will be back in jail in a year.  Those are the statistics. That means 27 percent can make it. 

And

that's a generous, I don't even think it's

? ?? ?

?But you go to Adult and Teen Challenge, and the percentage is reversed. 

80 percent of

the people that

go into Teen Challenge make it. 

and 20 percent are in there

they got a downward departure, or they're in there for other reasons.

Uh,

but, uh,

it's, Adult and Teen Challenge,

Uh,

the 13

month program. 

Someone asked  

?me one time. Why

does this work?

Well, I said, I'll tell

you why it works

Because for 13 months,

those men and women have Jesus in the morning. Jesus at noontime. Jesus in the afternoon, Jesus at supper time and Jesus

before they go to

bed at night, 13 months. Mm-Hmm. . And they love it. Mm-Hmm. , I've. 

Have you ever been in an Adult and

Teen Challenge?

No, I've never

had an addiction.

Exploring the Impact of Teen Challenge and Personal Mentoring

I've never visited one, either.

Although, the church that I go to does host Teen Challenge for the

Wednesday night

services. So every four months, there's a

new group

from Adult and Teen Challenge in and then

throughout the year.

Um,  I am  Thinking over,

uh, some of the notes that

you

had given me, and I know that you mentored

individuals one on one, and I'm assuming that was different from the Bible studies

you went in with

your fellow

Gideon. 

Was this later on, after you started presenting, that

you kind of

to

some one on one,

uh,

relationship with these people?  know, we've talked a little bit,

Holly,

but questions like that  It's an interesting, it almost seems like you know me a

lot more than the discussions we've had. 

Transformative Encounters: From Bible Studies to Personal Transformation

Yeah, I would go in

and I'd do the Bible studies, and then there was one particular person, uh, that had had,  he had had sexual 

activity with his own daughter. 

And he came into the jail, and, uh, he came in, And I was leading a

Bible study,

and I was, I would ask people, how many, a small enough group, I would say, how many of you are born again Christians? And actually, because that's why they came, most of them weren't. So,

there were like

five people in there, four

raised their hand.

At

just that time, this guy comes in, and he

heard me say that. And he said,

I'd like to be

born again, but he said, I have

to forgive myself 

And I said, then he

told him his name.

And I said, I

got real, he said, I've got bad news for you. And good I the bad news is you can't forgive yourself.

I said, the good news is that Jesus can forgive 

And

The Power of Visuals in Sharing the Gospel

so I went through, I have, uh,  a graphic way of explaining what salvation is.

? ?? ?

?I, when I'm

dealing with people, I use graphics, I use illustrations. It's

like Jesus and his parables, because these folks are,

um, 

they're

used to visuals. 

Now, the way I knew that they were

used to visuals,

and you can attest to that, is you look at the inmates in there, and more than half

them, I've got tattoos all over themselves. 

So that's

when I understood the

graphics. So I would give, I would give these, I would

do paintings. I would do drawings on a board. When I made presentations, I had a white board or a

black board there.

Uh, so anyhow, this guy, I'll just

cut to

the

chase

on this. 

Life-Changing Stories from the Jail Ministry

It's an interesting story. He got saved that day in that

room. 

But sometimes, like Billy

Graham crusades, you have people that are not really saved. They're awakened spirits,

but

not regenerative. They're awakened souls, but they're not regenerative spirits.

And you can tell that, but what happens

they come forward? They're outusing.

They 

They leave Jesus at the door on the way out.

They do. They do, because Jesus

was only in their mind. He wasn't

in their heart.  So, this guy's 

His, his, his experience of being born again was so dramatic, I had to find out whether it was going to

hold or  So I talked to

the

program director at that time, who was not

the one

that

me that booklet.

As a

matter of fact, this

person, 

uh, whether she was a Christian or not, I didn't know.  God knew, but I didn't know. But I asked

I

could see this guy.  No, and not outside in a room talking to him

by phone. She said, and I explained what happened. She

said, yes,

you  All of a sudden I was open to a whole new world when

I could talk to people.

? ?? ?

?And this guy was reading at about, he

had reading problems.

He was reading at

third grade level. So I started teaching him

the Bible.

He started reading the Bible.

I could tell that he really was saved,

And he was

so ashamed

what he had done. And, uh, he was sentenced to 12 years, serve eight.  Um,

and, uh, 

he was, became one of the strongest Christians that I knew. 

And because

that experience, I would ask  if I could see so and  so.

I started coming in here and there. And 

another person that I met on that type of

basin was, and he allows me to

use his name,

The guy in Stillwater, second degree murder.  It was really first. But, uh, sentenced to 40

years, served 28.

And it took him 

three years

for his case to be adjudicated. Because

you can only be in a jail one year. 

Uh, but he was in the jail for three years. Because you're in jail while your case is going

on. 

And, uh, he was, uh, 

He was a decent guy, but he was, he was living in a meth house. And, 

the, the crime that they committed, uh, killing

that woman,

it made the front page

of the Minneapolis  That's how

dramatic it was. 

So, they got caught. He's in jail. He's trying to figure out ways to commit suicide. They have him

on watch. 

They, you know, take

everything away.

But they don't take the, uh You know, he could take his pants off and hang

himself.

Uh, he didn't have

blankets or anything. 

Uh, but one day a little cart came by.

And, uh, he,  he grabbed a Bible off

the cart.

And, uh, he opened it to John.

And didn't even know, 

he didn't even remember where.

But at that moment he became saved. 

And, uh.  From then on, when

I would talk to him,

or when he'd be in a Bible study, he had a

perpetual smile on his face. And these

other inmates would say,

What are you smiling for, Sean?

You're

to be in life for prison. I mean, he was going to be in for 

God took care of him. He only got

40 years.

Uh,

but they said,

How can you

have a smile on your face?

And he'd look at

he'd smile, he says, Because I know who's going to be in there with me.  And I talked to him just a couple of weeks  and 

same thing. 

The Journey of Discipleship and Mentorship

? ?? ?

?So in the one on one meetings, you really come hopefully to be

engaged in that person's life and caring about

the outcome.  And I am certain

that there must have

been some tough times for you because you're coming to love people and

do their time with them,  in a way. Um,

Overcoming Depression and Embracing Empathy

How did you

prevent or think about preventing a recurrence of

depression?

Because sometimes these are really hard stories that

are listening to and helping with. 

When I went into jail,

it was a benefit for the inmates.

It was more of a benefit

me because I was

talking to people

about Jesus. I was involved in Christ's work. I was

his hand and feet.

There was no depression possible

in that situation. 

Plus, I ran across

a guy named

Tony. 

And I learned

a lesson

from Tony that I haven't forgotten to this day. It was about

maybe 10 years  So he's telling me about

his dysfunctional life,

uh, his drinking,

not being able to stop his drinking, losing his job, losing his house,

losing his car. I don't know if

lost his dog or not.

He wasn't married.

He 

has a country song. Yeah, 

yeah, it was a country song.

And, but he

had lost his girlfriend. He lost everything. And he's telling me this story and I'm listening to it. And I'm just, oh, I do feel bad. 

And

he said, this is about the third time

I talked to him, and he says,

Pat, 

said, can you identify with what

I'm saying?

Can you internalize what I'm saying? 

Can you empathize

with me? 

Or do you

just feel sorry for me? 

The fact of the

matter was, is mainly I felt sorry for him. 

But when

he said  that was a turning

point for me. Because from then on, 

I would try and

understand where people were coming from. I would

be in prison or jail with  And, uh, so that

was

very meaningful

for me.

The Role of Personal Experience in Ministry

It's interesting you say that because,  for myself, I

find that

My

past history, not

just having

been in prison,  but the different, uh, experiences that I suffered while I was there.

My parental rights being terminated

one of my children, and all these other things,

having gone to SEG, being on suicide watch.

Now when I meet other

people, they are just certain they don't need to

explain all this

stuff. And that, If nothing else, I'm equal to

their suffering and maybe even have experienced a little bit more. It makes them comfortable and it provides

some trust, and 

that

really is why Christ

came and lived for more than 30 years, uh, before he

died,  because he's

not just

a rescuing

hero. He's a relatable. friend

who has suffered more than we have so we can but

that's the real way I began to understand that

and 

What I hear

you saying is is that it's possible to

learn to

empathize

With others to a

degree where even if you haven't experienced  You still can develop that trust and

that  Um, I think 

In one on ones, you did this in jail or in prison or both?

Navigating Ministry in Jails vs. Prisons

? ?? ?

?Uh, mainly in jails. I found something interesting about prisons.

Prisons have such a wide breadth of Christian programs.

It's hard to get in there. 

And so,

uh, for

me, I would find that

God closes some doors, but He opens others. And the jails, like Hennepin County Jail, those jails, again, it was hard

get into them.

Mm.

So I became the chaplain and the preacher of Central Minnesota jails.  You know, so I went to Brainerd, Duluth, 

Foley, St. Cloud,  three jails of that area, go to Litchfield, uh,

and,

and all the saint, all the, uh,  uh, um, 

all the, the, the jails that are in Central Minnesota, um, That was, and there was enough of them. So I, I  made my rounds every year. 

Do you

that the people you have

mentored and discipled want to continue contact with you when they are released from jail or

The Continuation of Mentorship After Release

graduate from Teen Challenge? What does that look like?  

Well. 

do, some don't. When I'm

When I'm in the jail, I let the Holy Spirit speak  And so, the Holy Spirit will

tell me,  mentor him. 

Or, when I'm looking to people, and, and, there's

always someone that I would meet with for an hour

and a half. And the other people, like 30 minutes

at

time. I was

not a

boom, boom, boom, 15 minutes,

let's pray.

I spent at least

a half an

hour with everyone. 

But, uh, I had one person who, uh,

uh,

is now serving time in prison and 

he was an ex I learned from him. 

Spiritually, we were equals.  He

might have

even been a little step ahead of me,

but I

learned from him.

And when he

left, I, I, 

you know, it was months, almost a

year. And I said, now who? 

And

so I'm,

I'm in Gideons and

I'm giving a Bible study,

And I'm looking, and

like the Holy Spirit is saying, him. 

Uh,

now this Rico, he was black.

This guy is also black. I found some of the strongest

Christians

were black guys, and black

women.  and so I talked to him afterwards. I said, you know

Rico, right? He said,

yep.  And I said, did you know that I was meeting with Rico? Yep. 

Met with him for an hour and a half.

Yeah, I know that.  said, I'm looking for someone else that I can meet with for that amount of time.  

? ?? ?

?Now I knew

something about this guy because he was, he would volunteer to  mean, and I I could tell there was a Christian  And I said,

uh,  I

said, uh,

you know,

the Holy Spirit pointed you out to me.  And

I said,

you willing to meet

me for an hour and a

half? 

said, Sure. 

And so started that. I'm

still dealing with him on the outside.  But

a number

of people

that said, oh, yes, I want you to

mentor me. Oh, I'm going to need that. I'm going to need the help. 

And then they get out and the distractions

come. 

There's the

jobs.

There's the cars.  places to live. There's

girlfriends.  baby moms.

You know what a baby mom is?

I had not heard that

term 

before

I talked to people in jail. The baby mom.

And some people would have three or four baby moms.  Um, so,  um, you know, I, I got to know these folks and, uh, but

when they got out of jail, 

They, there were the

distractions.

And they'd meet with me a few

times.

Uh,

one person

that had really

turned his

life around. His name is Tyler. Uh, but, uh, he met with me

twice, and then we

were going to meet again and he didn't show up. Uh, he was standing out in a railroad track waiting for a

train to run over  Um, and there's an interesting story with him.

You can maybe have me on again, and I can

I can

you some of these stories.

I can definitely have you 

on again. You have a lot of 

Tell me the

Tyler story, but you had

asked a question earlier.

Becoming a Chaplain: A Turning Point

How did I become a chaplain? Yes.

Okay. 

Which is something that turned my life around. 

Okay, so I'm, I'm meeting with these, these men, and sometimes a woman, and, uh,

then the person that I didn't know whether she was

Christian or not,  uh, retired

And,

and

the person that took over her job. was the one who gave me

the packet. 

She

allowed me to come in to meet with

more people.

Uh,

but it was still, I would

have to ask, 

could I meet with this

person? Yes. Could I meet with that

Yes. I'd ask permission for each one. And some weeks I came

in, some weeks I didn't.

Um,  and

So, I had

kind of hit a plateau again.  And, uh, Then this

person at church, this Pastor Bill Hicks,

I had this book,

this wonderful book called, How

Stay Out of Jail.  And then I'd written my second one,

Stop Doing What You Don't Want to Do. And I thought,

this would be a

good book for other chaplains.

And so Pastor Bill said, yeah, it

would. I'll give you the name

of, uh, the head of the correctional chaplaincy. You know, the one that's hard

pronounce. Yes.

Uh, I'll give you his name. Talk to him.

So I call him up,

And, nice guy. His name was Dan

O'Dean, and so I'm talking to him, telling him about the book. He says, yeah,

He said, that would

a good book. 

But he said, uh, I could not endorse it to the other chaplains. I said, why not? He said, because you have no standing in

the Assembly's church. 

He said, normally, if I recommend a book, it's going

to be written by a pastor, it's going to be written

by a theologian, it

might be written by another chaplain. 

So

said, we're not going to take a book yet. He said, and he had looked at the book. He said, it may be a fine book,

great title. But he said, I couldn't endorse it.  And then there's a pause.  Now, why I was talking to him, I

didn't know, but God

knew.  And why was

I trying to sell a book 

through, through this? I don't know, but God knew.

So he said, oh, by the way, he said, we're just starting a program up for

associate chaplains. 

And, uh, is that something you'd be

interested in?  And,

first

thought was,

no. 

Uh, cause I knew it would be a lot of

work.  So he

said,  said, we'd like to try you out as a test case. He

said, I'll help

all along the way.

I had to get endorsements. I had to get testimonials. I

to get people that vouched  I

had to go through so many

hoops.  And then I became

an associate chaplain. 

I didn't realize what was going to happen,  um,  as a result of that. But all of a sudden, 

I can get in the Wright County Jail. So when I got that chaplaincy, all of a sudden,

I'm

coming in one day a week. 

And I

don't have to ask permission anymore. Can I talk to this person or that person?

People signed up to see

me. 

And if enough people didn't sign up

to see me, when I was in a Gideon's, I'd be sitting there, and the Lord would say, Him, Him, and Him. And

so I'd go up to

talk to those people.

I said, would you like

talk to me tomorrow?

It was Monday, it

was my day. Would you like to

talk to

me tomorrow?  Well, okay. 

And they'd say, do I have to sign up? I said, no, I'll

ask  And mainly the people I met with didn't sign up every week to see me. I asked for  Send me 

Robel. 

Send me

Peterson. 

As you

know. I'm Robel.

In

prison and jails,

everyone goes by

last name. 

Or their

Or, or their street name.  My,

My husband's incarcerated. He's been incarcerated for 13 years now. And sometimes in meetings

this and in groups, I will find someone who spent time in a prison he's

been in,

I'll ask

their name and then I'll ask him, Do you know so and so? I

don't know real names.

Nobody around here uses their real names, so.

Yep, yep. There was one guy in the jail, that's the

it was in

the Wright County

Jail. He was a big guy, and they called him Country. 

And then there was

Probably as big as a country. Yeah, yeah, 

that's why they called him Country. 

And, uh,  there was, let's see, there was a guy that played football.  his nickname?  Oh, Rush.

called

him Rush because he played halfback.

half that.

? ?? ?

?And so anyhow, all of a sudden, I can see all these people and then, uh, when I go to Adult and Teen Challenge, it's a whole new

thing because I'm not Pat Day

anymore. I'm Chaplain Pat.

Right. And when

I go into the county jails, I'm Chaplain Pat. 

and it's easier for me to get

into. 

And then

when

uh, I call

for someone,

they'll, they'll call down

and say, uh,  Chaplain Day wants

to talk to Rush. 

Sometimes they use those nicknames too. 

I'm thinking as you're talking about 

you choosing individuals instead of them

coming to you, and

it reminds me of one

of

my favorite Bible verses. There are so many

Bible verses where the writer is the

seeking God

and looking for God or trying to find

God and it's seen where it's it's the

the part

of man but in Psalm 119

119, the last verse of that chapter, it says, I

have gone astray like

a lost sheep. Seek, inquire for, and demand your servant for I do not forget your

so it's asking

God 

to come seek and find right and that's Sounds

like

God was using

you to fulfill this very verse

of finding the people When they weren't

forward themselves, they're lost,

you know, 

okay

Well, you got it figured out at the end there, but

I was

going to correct you ollie

When you said I would find the people no, I didn't find the people the holy spirit found

the people and

it

was just You know,

it's it's not like god has an

audible voice that speaks 

but When he nudges you, when he points you in a

way, it's

unmistakable.

And it was like,

you know, and sometimes I tell the person, uh,

like,  Marv,

I

would say, 

Holy Spirit

told me to talk to you.  Oh. 

And,

uh, 

I don't know that there's anyone that the Holy Spirit pointed out that didn't agree

to talk to  

I'm curious. 

on what advice you would have for someone who is a recovering addict or maybe not yet even

recovered

based on all of these people that you've met with.

And it

sounds like one of those

tips would be to continue to see mentorship or discipleship

or discipleship as an important part of your life.

Staying Close to Jesus: The Ultimate Advice

Um, what else do you think is a good advice

for people like that? 

Well, 

um,  trying to think of, I've got a, a graphic in my book that I use, uh, and I can't do it here because I can't walk.

Yeah.

Uh, but if,

uh, 

these are the parameters between here and my other

hand are people who are saved.

So I

go into a jail and I said, how many are

born again Christians?  And, uh, 

they've come

because generally they are. I'm, I'm, every once in a while I'll get a jokester in there,

But they're in there.

So most

of the hands will go up

And I'll say,

okay, next question. How many

of you were born again Christians when you committed your

last crime

or

when you started using 

And they

would sit there.

and

say, let me tell you something about

myself.  I

have a gift from the Lord. I can endure long periods of silence. 

So I said, I don't believe you're

telling me the truth. I

think most

of you were born again when you committed your last crime. You know, admit to it.

And so they'd raise

their hands.

And then I'd say it

a way so that

they didn't feel I was coming

down on  And I've, I've learned the

voice to use. So I'd look at

him and said, Hmm.

I said, how's that?  When you

were born again, your sins were forgiven, your sinful nature was taken away, and you're

going out and committing the same

sins or worse.

I said, how's

that possible? 

And they look at me. It's the very question they've asked themselves thousands of

times. 

And I said, let me explain it to you. 

Okay, so

I do it

in a room walking back

and forth. I'll do it with my hands

over here. So everyone in here is saved. Over here is the fallen world.  Over here

is heaven. 

Okay,

so, and here's Jesus, 

Here's the fallen world over here. 

They don't get into the fallen

world again, but they get awfully  So what

happens is,

is in the middle of this

parameters,

there's, 

well,

let me put it this way.

When you're

over here next to Jesus, there's more of Jesus

than there is a view

or the world. 

When you're over here, there's more of you and the world than

there is of Jesus.

You can

hardly even hear him. So what happens to these people,

when they're in jail, they've

got all this

time to be close to Jesus.

And then when

they get out,

they start drifting.  And when they get to the point where there's more of

them,

and this is what

I'm explaining,

more of them

in the world, 

that's when they

commit the crimes  And you know what? It's the same for me. I'll bet you

it's the same for you,

Is, when you get busy, when you get caught up, when you get in a fight with your husband, when you get into all those things where you're

drifting,

and you

get over here,  that's the point in time where you'll

snap back  That's the point in time where you'll say something cutting to  That's

the point in time. You might swear

like some of the girls did in the prisons.  Probably not, but bad things happen over here. So 

the secret, which is

not really

much

of a secret is stay over

here. 

And you stay as close

Jesus as

you can What I say is you want to be so close

Jesus that if he stopped, you bump into the back of him. 

And so now  Then I move into, how do you do that?

There aren't any

secrets there.  Bible. 

Prayer. 

Christian service.  Uh, So, 

and, and going to a spirit filled church. There

aren't,

you know. 

And, uh, 

having a mentor. The mentor's terribly, terribly important.  so, uh, the more of those things that you do. The

closer you stay to

Jesus, 

Um, 

and when

they get out of jail, when the distractions come, it's not that they're doing

bad things by getting a house and

car and those  they've taken their eye off  You gotta keep your eye on Jesus. So the answer to your question,  which

got me a while,

took

a while to get there, is that,

uh, you stay near Jesus. stay in the place where there's more of

Jesus

than there is of you in

the world. 

And by the way, when it's you

in the world,

there's a third person there.

Satan.  Because you're vulnerable. 

And so you want to stay over there. If you stay over there, you're safe. You stay over here, you're danger.  And that's kind of the

premise of my book.  Finding the safest place on earth. The safest place on earth is right next to 

And this book talks about how

you stay near to Jesus. 

So, when you're

talking about, and it's

a story of a person named

Jack. 

And, uh, Jack

an alcoholic. And he fails over and over and over again. He goes into rehab. He makes his wife promises a thousand times he'll stop drinking.

A thousand times he breaks that  But God is a

God of a thousand

chances. He'll take you  a thousand times. My

friend Tyler says,

that's good to hear,

but he said, I've used up 900 of them.

them.  No, no, I said to Tyler, I said, you've probably used up about

900 of them, Tyler.

He said, try 970. 

Well, and

I think

sounds like you are also saying if someone  wants to serve others,

And the way that you do the number one advice there is the same Advice staying as close to jesus as

Final Thoughts and the Importance of Mentorship

by being in the word And prayer right and listening.

Yes,

and

also,

Mentorship of their own where they

are mentored

or discipled by others. We're never Too far along that we can't benefit from

a

relationship like that, you know You  When I started reading the Bible in

earnest, I was so surprised to see that Jesus himself, who is God

and is perfect, spent whole nights in prayer.

I thought, boy, well, if he needs

entire night, I

need more

than that. You know, and it really highlighted the importance of

relationship in that way. 

Yep.  

Um, 

? Our time is running short

and um, I'm going to have the

information about your book be

on my website. And for those who are watching,

that's

to be at hollybot. me and you can learn more about Pat and

the books that he's authored there. Um,  I

just want to see if there's anything else that I Let me say one thing about this

book

Yeah. And

that's that, um,

This book would be

a good one for someone who's addicted 

because it will show

them there's a way out.

By the way, Jack does not, he eventually becomes sober

with

the final lesson at the end of the book.  So 

read it until the end. 

Yeah, yeah. 

Read it until the

end.

but he doesn't make it

on his own.

He has a mentor that

God gives him called Manny.  I'm not Jack not Jack in this book.

And I wish I were Manny, but I'm

not.

Manny is way above 

So, 

Jack, it's not easy for

Jack.

And this

not a fairy tale book. 

This Jack is a

compilation of all the addicts  And so, the, the, the

family, the

situations, the, the losses,

the broken promises, all the rest.

And he struggles all the way

through this book. 

And, and

this is a good book,

you know, addicted people who live

with addicted people

to understand addictions. I was just thinking that that's a help too

for the families who support

people who

are struggling to understand.

And

people want to get closer to Christ. People who want to serve

Christ don't know how to go

about doing it, you

reading

something like this. And the real thing

is when you get to

the end of this  Jack struggles until

he gets

the final lesson 

And, uh,

so the question would be is what is

that final lesson all about? 

But I think we're running out of

time, aren't we? 

We are. 

Well,

the only way to find out what the final

lesson is,

is to get a copy of

this

book. Yeah, read it for yourself

and share it

with people that you

think would benefit from it.

And you'll have this

on your site?

I will. I

will have this up on the website

at hollybot. 

me and I want to thank you.

for being here today.

And as we've

already discussed, I hope you will be available to come back at some

in the future and share some more with us because there's a lot

you have to

offer. So thank you for being here, Patrick.

And for everyone watching

online and on Speak Minneapolis Channel 75, if you want to

watch more great

episodes like this one, you can find

them at www.

hollybot. me. Thanks for being with us.