Introduction to the Podcast

 📍 So we'll

get started.

Sorry.

 

Unveiling the Truth Behind Heroes and Truths

welcome to the,

from surviving to living spotlight series podcast.

  📍 And today we're going to

be talking about

I guess we haven't

a short way to say this yet,

but really understanding

that not everything that you're told

 growing up and people that

think are heroes

are

giving you

all of

the truth or the whole information 

we all need to

to a point where we question things for ourselves.

Doubting

and questioning are not  naughty words. They're not dirty words. And they actually 

lead to.

deeper understanding. They are opportunities for

personal growth. I think that growing up, I was

afraid of doubting. I thought it made me look

weak  or not perfect,

right? And coming to learn not to run from doubts or stuff them down, but really address them and look for answers 

was a lot of

growth for me.

So we're going to talk

about that

today. And so before we do that, can

you tell us who you are and where are you from? 

Matthew Emerson's Journey: From Homelessness to Sobriety

 

Oh, well, thank you for me.

Yes. My name is Emerson.  

am 

originally from North St. Minnesota.

What, 

where

am  

well, so

I was

I was

The Spiral into Drug Dealing and Consequences

homeless youth 

from 

18 22.

At

that time. 

everybody was

telling me you need to get sober.

And so I got

sober at age of  

but

nobody told me

that I can't

be

a

drug dealer. 

So I was

a

drug dealer for three years, sober. And then I ended up a 9 year prison sentence.  

The Turning Point: From Drug Use to Sobriety

I have a question before you get much further.

How old you

when you started 

drinking or anything like that, that, you

finally quit

as a young adult?  Oh the age of about 14, I started

I think

important to up 

in that 

context. So I

I was

raised since I was two years old by a stepfather who

is African American, a black man.

And so growing up, my mom was a Catholic

teacher. father was a black man. And so

growing up,

my mom 

was a Catholic

teacher.

My father was a black man. I also visited my birth father for one hour every two weeks for my whole childhood, right?  and so Growing up.

I was

existing in this extremely structured like catholic school level environment And thriving and while at home we had this bright biracial

family.

extremely significant

And was very normal. It was very normal. And as

I got older there were problems in society that You occurred because of my biracial household as somebody that could easily appear as a hundred percent white in society.

And so that was one of the first things that I began searching to understand reason behind incidents

that would occur microaggressions or full blown you know,

oppressive

actions in my existence.

And that led to.  This extreme defiant

perspective

in the world

that I exhibited and then

massed through alcohol

and marijuana

through my

teen years. It was because it's 

of those things that you really can't address until you have enough education

to call things for what they are

and then have enough lived

experience

to

accept

those things

for what are.

And then even go farther to be stable enough

to really those conversations not only with yourself, but

with your

community.

And articulate those things and how they you.

And so that kind of sparked this illicit use phase

of my life. 

At the age

of 14.

And then from there, I pretty much spiraled downhill and hit rock bottom 

when  

And I bet a teen, everything just described would have just been confusion 

and 

wanting answers, but not

knowing where to

get  this 

would have been 

very comforting and escape addiction is an escape. So what

made you?

Decide to transition being a to dealer

  📍 ​

 Well, so love the question because I've been asked that before  But 

So drug use 

was 

an 

experimental existence  and so

I

existed to experiment with a

new type of marijuana with  snorting a Vicodin.

Well, let's

experiment with a Trazodone. 

Let's experiment with

snorting some

pill that 

you don't know what it is, you know.

Let's experiment by

snorting a Methadone see how that's different from Ecstasy. And it this constant  experimentation until I ended up

in this field

of hard drugs like Amphetamines,

Heroin, and

Crack Cocaine. 

And so at

that 

level,  

pretty much like

had hit the pinnacle. 

Like when use quality versions of these drugs, really nothing

more

exciting and more better.

More better, like that's a

Vietnamese, like

English

slang that my

friend. I guess you'd say more

better. And through that experience I  a lot of really fun.

Up on some executive's yacht for a month. I 

ended 

up, actually, I slept 

in a 

clothing store the street from this building back building was a Vietnamese grocery 

store.

And I used to have to come

over here and I always the story how

the first

time I ever in this building the gentleman was like, get me

a lemon. 

And so I went across

street and

he

gave me like a 10 to go buy lemon. I come across the 

street,  

buy a lemon,

I come over

and he goes,

not yellow lemon, the one. 

It 

was 

like,  are yellow. And

was of my first questionings

of

like,

what is life? Like,

what is what I've been taught?

What I've, I've been 

educated 

And how

is it different in 

context, 

Cause it's like. Lemon is yellow. We all know this, right?

But. 

in translation, a lemon can be or yellow,

or probably some other color

that I can't right now. 

So yes

you switched

to 

Dealing was that 

Oh

financial? 

no. I ended up 

I Ended up 

for

lack, 

I ended

up three DMT where I smoked DMT for 

days.

I woke up the next day in Hennepin

County Jail with my face

on the Star Tribune. 

because you can for a bouncer who was

haggling me for

asking

for change

in front of their bar  

  📍 ​

 

I thought 

I had another fel

at point I had two for really frivolous auto theft stuff not 

serious.

I wasn't even intentionally, I was

aiding and abetting. And so at point 

I had 

done

244 days

of

time in

the

county system.

So that was like, 244

days 

jail 

plus 

another 

120 days of house arrest square.  And

I was finally free and for 30 days and

I did this crazy

drug that took me through

my past,

present and future. And I woke up with

another felony

and not only another felony, a violent

crime felony for fighting a bouncer, 

you 

know,

and at that moment I did 21

days or 

so 

in, in the

Hennepin

County  

And when I 

was free, I am done. I

do  want felonies anymore. I don't 

want  And 

I also wanted to know 

else was out there other than drug use because I had experienced drug use. I had experienced up, down, all around, every aspect of drug use. So I wanted to

actually know what it to be sober.  And so I

ended  in a 28

day treatment in Stillwater. And 

on the 

26th day of a

28 day me and my roommate were messing around And he threw

Parmesan cheese in hair. 

And so I got up and slapped him with a  And I was kicked out after

26

days

sobriety.

The longest sobriety I

Had since was 7 days sober I was 15. 

And

I was terribly distraught

because I had housing set up. I had everything

set up. of

course, my childish temper.  22 year old newly 22 year old self had to slap my roommate with a piece of pizza in the chow

hall

And he

Sounded like mouse

when he was like

it's all over my  and 

I did get

quite a bit of  from slapping him, but

it put me back on a road and so at time

I

up making it

eight

days sober  seven and was on my own

without

anybody's help that was huge And

on the

eighth day

AA

meeting

I

met a guy there that kind 

of knew 

one of my friends and we into car 

and he starts shooting

heroin right, away, right

as he's driving away from the

A meeting.

I end up relapsing. Four weeks later, I finally had called another treatment center, did some things. You know,

my 

talked to me about change or die 

like that.

And I finally set

myself up

to go to

another treatment  

I went to R. S.

Eden and Portland. 

It's apparently one of the roughest

places can go to 

sober. 

I have

some friends who 

been over 

there. Yeah.  And I ended up doing five

months

and three there a month program. 

was 

out 

again, 

but I took

my sobriety with  

And that was huge. And so now I was in the world.  I was sober. I ended up sleeping on my dad's couch.  



My dad's mom who had passed away

left

a

little bit of money to

get my stuff

together. 

it took 

about all that money just to

get my license out of tickets.

My, all

of my,

you know, legal stuff

with my license order. 

had driver's permit 

and I was able to purchase a

small and get some insurance. And 

that was what my grandma's entire inheritance

paid for.

That's

still huge.

But it got me out of

the jam, and my mom

said, well, 

we it's either now or never,

It's now or never. we 

might 

as well in you now. if flunk out, flunk out.

at least we didn't wait

10 out you out, right? ,

and so I

had a car and then stepdad got me a

job at a truck wash in South St.

Paul,

which was great.

And so I was asking myself

like, okay.  I sober? How do I stay sober, right? do I

stay I'm like have  God blessed me with all this stuff 

How do I

stay sober? 

  📍 ​

 And so I called my one friend Moe  because he's

With 

his 

weed

And 

so I

if I hung out with He wouldn't 

try and pass 

the blunt 

You know

and 

so out with Moe because

he's the only person I

know that doesn't do hard drugs, right?

And I just 

hung out for months

and we had amazing adventures. He was selling pot I had a driver's license. It was easy, you know, and he never offered me any

weed. So 

was about 

months 

I was

around him smoking pot  

and hadn't smoked 

any 

so then when that was 

more Friendly

or me some I was like No, I'm good,

man.

If

if if I'm not Mo, I'm going 

smoke all. 

And

that's how I ended up in the 

circle  

that

I just realized

like, 

and

it  intentional at all,

but all the people that I knew from my drug using days that were sober, the only people I knew that would associate with me while I was a drug addict,  We're sober

drug dealers,  and so I just started helping them with things then that  to this huge This

thing where  them and help them and help and thing you know, I into the category

of

being a drug dealer.

  

  📍 ​

  📍 How do that for you say and a half years? so how did 

that come  an end 

for 

you? 

I'm 

it was 

unexpected Right, 

Well, there's rules

that you follow

and if you don't follow one

the rules

You know, it's

pretty much

it was, year's eve 

and I 

my driver use meth while he was driving.

I mean, I was on a 24

hour schedule so 

I 

was,

for 24 hours

a I was in a vehicle

Distributing

and my driver,

I let him 

use 

meth 

And there you

go. That's all it took. 



The police

pulled us over at 83 miles an hour. They found 9,

000 bucks

in my pocket

and drugs. 

And, 



All 

I had was the

possession of

drugs, so all I was charged was possession.

But

possession of

that amount

led to a nine and a

half year prison sentence.

And

I'm sure that your previous felonies would have been

taken factor for sentencing? 

That and I was

not in the Twin Cities. 

I was up in 

Stern County. 

So

you see,

they earned

their name that day.  So you're in

prison and all of this is very different.

How did your family feel about that? Cause

it

sounds like  who 

raised your mom and 

husband, 

your stepfather were good.

Were they good, 

solid And what did this look like for  

Well, I mean the most significant figure related to my family was that  there was never a point where they

said they were disappointed in ever once, in, 

in this whole process, even when I was a drug addict

with people a place to stay,

there was never one word of we're disappointed, one word of you need to do something. It was just

like, well, we will do

what we can't,

we

to and we won't do 

we don't 

agree to And I never asked them really for anything.

And yeah, I mean,  I do think about the day I was sentenced to nine

and a years

and my

mom court how

difficult would have been for

her  

and me it was

just this motion that I chose to go

through. I was either run. Or go to

court, 

you know, it's like I got two options and I chose the latter, you know, but

for just you know the

for how much work looking back that she put

into my life the age of

24 

when

I  

I must have the for mom.  

Did you know that gonna be your sentence?

No. they,

I did plea. So she could, the judge could have

The number, chose not to based on the evidence that

she had

and I saying, also

accused me of still using drugs. And I to her courtroom, I said,

I passed 54 drug tests

this year.

said, just because you passed test

doesn't mean you're using drugs

nine and years. I'm like, Oh, whatever, anyway, that's the judicial system. I got it.  Trust it for what

it's worth. will say, 

so I went

into college, or I mean, I'm sorry, 

I went 

into prison with 12 college 

credits, 

and I

came out with 87, 

I facilitated 114

father support groups 

while 

I was there,

and I also participated in 7  Christian music ministry

services per week entire time I was there.

Did you start do that as

soon you arrived was there

before you got things?

It took some time. I kind of had to prove myself to

the system not proving to

the

administration

who monitors inmates, but also to the

inmates that 

facilitate and produce  

service 

in chapel area, which is

a space.

  📍 ​



  📍 So 

all 

of

those 

things, 

look at it now, what's your attitude as you look towards yourself? How do you think that you changed during that time doing these groups and 

do you think

prison, good or bad,

Affected 

you

on the whole? 

well,  I mean  When I first

got there was caged into a single 

cage 

at the bottom 

a 

a 276 cage 

wall structure and

the fatality existed.

For the first time in my life, I contemplated

suicide 

just 

to be safe just to be

on safe side, I just commit

suicide, you know? No, seriously. And  from that 

moment

I

got locked into

my from the first moment

that opened and

I walked out and I looked down

This tier

This corridor with

these tables and these

stainless steel phones and this

guard desk and a door that

goes to somewhere that you're never allowed to go through

unless if there's a guard there to let you through it.

The

The fatality of it

is the way

I describe it.

I

thought, well,

yeah,

drug dealing was a terrible idea. 

That's what I

thought. And I thought, you know, I will never ever do that again

because I'm not willing to

do, it's a

very fun career.

I really considered it a career for myself.

It was a great career.

But it's not worth nine and a half years in prison.

And I went

into the sentencing structure because I had

plenty of good lawyers and

like that. I even had a forensic specialist, which I didn't even Um, I went in thinking, well, if I could 

get under five

years and then do 13 months in prison, I could

have my friends still sell this,

and my other friends still that and just

kind of keep

the business afloat for 13 months while I'm.

While I'm incarcerated 

And that's one of the reasons

I'm so thankful

and transparently,

I'm thankful for the nine and a half year prison

sentence.   📍 ​

 

 It

was really like, okay, it's a, the gig is up.

I know

that this is a problem. And at the

time I still had the third degree felony assault on my record, which

automatically

left me at closed points. So therefore I didn't qualify for early release. I didn't qualify for any programming. I didn't qualify to go build

with anybody.

I didn't qualify for any of the fun. opportunities that actually exist in prison.

As few and far between

as they are, 

as you can appreciate. And  that's kind of, that's 

the moment I was like,

never again.  

  📍 ​

 Was there more

that happened in prison or was it beyond your release after that nine years that 

you started to 

question, you know, cause you were mentoring.

I assume you had mentors and probably believed what they

were saying like you were as a youth. 

Did that

doubt that maybe everything

I'm being told is not the case happened in prison or later?  Well,

I mean, shortly after that there was a spiral of negativity

that then supported my 

proposition

to never sell drugs again.

And that was,

um, I'm very technical. I'm a technical communicator. I took accounting when I was 18 and chemistry, you know, when I

was a 

freshman  more in Kentucky.  

And

so in my 24 hour lockdown intake facility cell

I roughly calculated all the money that 

I made in

the two and a half, three years that I was selling drugs. 

so my gross profit or my

gross sales

was 5 million  in two

and a half years. 

And I did the math and it's like, wait a minute, I spent 30,

000 a year on cigarettes. 

Cause it wasn't just, so I was smoking three packs a day. I smoked so many cigarettes, my lung collapsed at the age of 23.  And I think it was from but buying my brother's cigarettes or

my friend's cigarettes or whoever's cigarettes.

My budget was 30, 000 a year on cigarettes. It was 120, 000 a year on mechanic 

car stuff.

 And I ended up

realizing that my

profit

was only

456, 000. 

Of 5 million.  

  📍 ​

 So like I

did all of this

work got a

a ten year prison sentence and

everything for

four hundred fifty six thousand minus

expenses,

which was roughly,

400,

hundred thousand 

So it's like so

I did the math

and then I added the

nine and a half year prison sentence 24 hours a day

of time

associated with the work And so before the prison sentence

I was making 500 per hour of my work  And then

after prison, I was making five cents an hour for work. 

so, 

I realized that the people that were giving me the drugs to sell, they knew  they knew it 

And they're at home with their families. Right. And I'm the one that didn't tell

on anyone or whatever you want  glorify,

but

it's not 

something that I It's not something,

It's a moment where

I realized that these were people that were really mentoring me.

Hey Come you should buy a different

from us every week.

You should you know, do this or get your car fixed at this shop,

which is my brother's shop instead of

Saying

like hey, you should save every single dollar

that you accumulate because this is not going to last long.  

  📍 ​

 And then

I look back at some of the

people in my life who

said that.

And I'm like, 

how

do

you let me sell drugs and

buy drugs for me and then tell me that? Which means that

you

had so much

wisdom about all of

these things,

You

knew I was going to prison. So that, but yet you still wanted

to support me

in

being a drug dealer and support me providing you with drugs for

not only your

habit but also for your

community.

And I

realized that, like, from a

societal, structurally

standpoint, I mean, like, this is really, like, black market stuff and they really had no,

ultimately, their

moral compass 

eliminated. 

any opportunity for my personal growth. It's using behavior.

Even 

when

not using drugs, you can have

a using mentality.

And it sounds like

the people giving you the drugs were using you. They

a using mentality and it wasn't 

to your benefit. 

was to 

theirs. 

And

so 

after you leave

prison, what do you think was different for you this

time, other

than this. strong desire to never return that 

ultimately kept you from, because I

hear about relapses all the time,

right? 

Well, prison and post prison, sobriety

had become such a part of my identity. 

Being a sober driver of low riders of Dodge Viper, you know, all types of fancy cars. Cause I

was sober and I was all around a bunch of drug dealers. So I always got to drive  Sobriety was part of my identity

before I got to prison

or

the joint, you know,

but moving from the joint on 

it was it took all three years.

  📍 ​

 So I ended up doing 

seven months in St. Cloud  and after seven months the reason why I

was able to leave St. Cloud was because

my mom got me a lawyer that reduced my third degree assault to a disorderly conduct because the two and a half year  was

served. That allowed my custody points to drop

from 21 down.

So

then I was immediately

shipped out to Moose Lake  and through that

process, well,  as

you're talking about

all this, I'm just thinking, wow, you have great. Family members that were there to support you that are not

using you. They're really investing in you and I

know

that 

Now

you

are investing in Others which is an about 

right?

Oh, okay. I picked up my train

of thought so

So going through st. Cloud 

Experiencing the men

right? I mean

I 

had long conversations about 

transformation from

day one, because I was dreaming about  

And I think about in

E

House, in the

intake

facility, there was a man whose

name was the letter

L. 

And L 

he said,

Hey, Matt,

I want you, he says, you're smart and stuff, you know, and so he used to

have me

I used

count in my head two minutes while he would shadow box with himself

to see

if he could last two minutes in the ring.

He would, he had so many creative ways to survive. In a box.

And I pray for this guy today, like,

I just pray so

much 

on him, like, he's just the, I 

want him to pull up in front of the studio in a Rolls 

away,  

And one thing he had me do is, this is one of my first assignments in my changed life, is he said, I want you to calculate all the times that I've

been in jail

since I was 10 years old. 

And so on the back of a kite, which is a government form that you can't mail out, I

started calculating

from the age of 12 until today.

And

he was

maybe, I was 

25 at the time when

we were doing this, and he

was maybe 27 or something.  And from the age of 12 to the

of 27,

Elle had spent a total of 11 months

outside

of the prison. Wow. Wow. Wow. And

it hurt me.

It was like one month

he was 13,

when he was

18 he got out

for two months

and 

I listened

to him and 

going

back to the

people that, that

govern our

lives through influence and

eldership it was all of his mentors. 

That we're causing  

Well, you

need to go do

this or, Oh, if this happens, you need to, I need your help and

do this and it was just so tragic and this is like within my first

short time entering

the facility and I and it really shaped my understanding of The men that I was

going to be communicating with moving forward because you got

to remember

before

I

came in there for the last three

years the only sober people I could communicate with were extremely high level Drug dealers in 

this community that we have in 

And

so I really didn't

have much room for a lot of trickery

or anything like that.  

  📍 ​

 And so as

I was going through the incarceration

You know,

I ended up in Moose Lake  I started sharing with some of the

native brothers up there,

my father's stories that he told me about myself and how

we're connected to indigenous heritage. 

And

I quickly realized that 

we are not associated with any indigenous

Navigating Heritage and Identity in Incarceration

heritage. To the point where

I had

violated 

of their conditions

of existence in that space.

right?

And you know, my dad has passed away, so

it's not

like he could

have vouched for me 

for lack of

better terms.

And that's really a tragedy.

And it's a tragedy

that My

father told me these stories. Now,

to be fair, my father said, If you go to prison,

the natives

will kill you. You know, and I went to a medium facility instead of a closed facility.

But, you know, he did give me a fair statement. But

it's just,

with him passed away, there

was no

identity of that

heritage or that lineage was lost.

And so that was one of the first

aha moments is like, okay, my father told me this thing. I shared exactly what he said to somebody else. And now this is causing me imminent danger. Now let's re evaluate who

is this

adult male figure for this adult male in society? Why am I listening

to my

father?

And this was my birth father,

not my stepfather.  Why

am

I listening to 

his

narratives? Why am I perpetuating his narratives? Why did I do this?

It's caused me great harm, you know? 

And

and that's really one of the first moments incarcerated that

was revealing to 

and so, I went

out into 

the community within the 1,

000 people in Moose Lake 

Prison.

And I

started seeking out

what

eldership was and

how

it operated

in this 1, 000 man

operation. 

And I got

to meet, just

by looking and listening and

observing, I had an opportunity

in a

closed

setting

to see different

versions of um,

Day,

day, 24  And that really 

Caused me to

like seek like, well, what else is out

in life

Fatherhood from Within: Learning and Leading in Prison

?

And that's how I ended up going to a father support group in

prison. And it was led by

Monty Ross who I spoke

on

phone earlier today.

I had the

privilege

of going out to Perkins with him for his first meal after 33 

years in prison.

Just like hands down. I don't even care.

Like we got biscuits with.

chicken on them and gravy.

It was so

fun. It's like the coolest thing ever is

like, never can take that

away

  📍 ​

 But

so money

And

Leon Perry

They were running this father support group.

And so I sat in this room and

it

was 10  10 men

And I was definitely, like, I was

26 and I was like the baby in the room, you know And they're going around the one guys like well, I got 

three daughters. I

love them very much 

And I'm

ready to go 

home. I'll  And

the next guy, well,

I have one daughter. I've never met her. I've always wondered

who

she was. 

And then you got another guy and he goes, well, I

have two sons. And I got off the phone with one of them before I got down here and

then it goes to the next guy and then Leon says, well, I have six children and I had to raise them all from prison somehow. 

And I made sure that I saved up my twelve and a half cents an

hour of labor To

make sure I

sent

the unit I bought uniforms at every September and sent

them a box of uniforms for their school.

So they

all had clean uniforms and I had to figure out all this stuff from 

prison

And, you know, he, 

From listening to him, you could tell that prison was kind of just thrown

at him. He

was like, forget

prison I'm raised these babies of mine, you know, just like was so empowered by that and then

I really enjoyed some of Manny Ross's in those early experiences. He talked about ownership of our lives. 

and ownership of our title as fathers in our children's life.

And he would he would

he would always say, hold your title. You know, 

can only relinquish your title, meaning you can only, you have to surrender your title

to lose your title.

Nobody can

take your title without you surrendering it or relinquishing it.

And I thought about

it. I'm like, okay,

hold my title,

I'm a hold my title. You know, 

and I

operated from that context inside the prison throughout 

The next two, 24 months there and then throughout the

months after that in the

early release program boot camp 

And what you say is super important.

Redefining Parenthood and Partnership from Prison

 I was a parent a mom in prison, I was

very determined to be a mom,

but I

had to  reevaluate.  My definition of parenthood that it's not

just it includes financial

provision But it's not about being the only

provider.

It's not about just supervising them Right day cares can do that babysitters do that

In fact, the government can fund your children if you

like and you're still their parent So what is genuine motherhood 

and

I began to recognize its

number one being a role

model 

Someone my children would want to grow up to be like.

I can have all the money

in the world,

I can spend all the time in the world with them. And if I'm not worth knowing, it's pointless.

And so I began

to work on that along with the

others.  

And so it's not about

freedom.  about 

you

have talked about

mentorship. 

It's, about what's inside.

And so you now do  in the community,  correct me

if I'm wrong. Cause David had told me this,

Is it sober housing or things like that?

Transitioning from Incarceration to Community Contribution

What is it that you're doing now?

Oh, my, my current, yes, please tell us about Well, I will

caveat this by saying there's a large part that we jump over

from end of prison till now. Well, we can talk about

that too. Tell me everything that goes into how you got to where

you  Well, so I

I came out of prison  87

college 

credits. 

And I

had been fighting with

the TRIO program and I'm a name

them

by

name on the for a reason.  

Because

they came

in and they were like,

hey, we want to help you get your degree and help you figure

out all the little details.

Details that you can't figure

out for yourself

and

every time they

in every year after year for

three years straight I went to their one seminar every year.

and I was like help me and I'd fill out all these

paperwork and I'd send it

to

him

I would get no

response 

and so when I got out of prison one of the first things that I when I had some freedom on

my intensive

at least year

of process 

As I drove

up  Lake Superior College, 

which is who

was bringing the 

classes in to?  Moose Lake and Lake Superior

College in Duluth

and I went to the

TRIO office and I put down paper

all my papers And all my

stuff that I did. I mean, oh my gosh, I did 87

cut

credits for  and they took one look and they said  Think it's time for you to see the counselor

upstairs I'm like, what are you guys doing here?

And I mean, I'm sure they function in other capacities. It's so frustrating but so

I went up

stairs And from there it

was quite a process and I had to fight to get my  And

as soon as I got my associates

my younger brother was about 23 or 24 and walked in

the door like, Well, I just got

my bachelors degree.

And I

was 

like, I got my associates degree. He's

like, Matthew, you're nothing until you have your bachelors  

And so

I went and got my bachelors degree at Metro State.

And at the

meantime, in the meantime,

when I got

out of prison, it took me 30 days to get my first job.

And in Moose Lake, I worked in the soap factory full time while I went to

school full time,

while

I facilitate a father support group, and while I did seven prison music ministry services a week. 

And so

I knew I could take on a little extra at that time. So I ended up working at the medical device factory.

In Edina on the production level  

for three years, 

I never missed a day,  which is a a skill

that I kind of

took from the bootcamp

and

early release 

process  how hard that 

and so I worked there, lived at my 

mom's. 

And then I

volunteered on the weekends at Habitat for Humanity

and 

this group called Ready For  

Which they do. So like, it was the best volunteering

ever. So it was me and four old black pastors.

and we would measure people's necks and their

arms, and their waist,

and we'd put new dress suits on

them

after they either got

out of prison.

Or got out of the Carlson Business School

with a low income,

you know. And it was just

so cool to connect

with people because it wasn't just prisoners, you know. I would get these young college students

just got their

masters in business. 

And I'm fitting them in a suit and

I'm talking to

them and we're having a good time.

And

then I, you know, somebody

from Teen Challenge comes in and he's

like, I'm going to change my

life. And now five years later, he is the executive director of some huge company, you know,

And

those experiences just kept going. It was just like,

so motivating.  to help people, right? And just to get to help people.

and over at Habitat

for Humanity, I worked at one of their

warehouses and it was nice

to just do some construction stuff. You know, it was very de

escalating to  work in material and structural stuff. Cause I like looking 

at fancy stuff.



And through that process, I ended up

staying connected with some of

folks from incarceration.

And there was a. He was a prison administrator

was a prisoner who

did the

admin, communicated with the prison administration for 22 years.

And he I met up

him just to see

him face to face because his door was right next to mine. And he even helped me edit some of my psychology correspondent classes from St. Cloud State University. So I was like, Mr. Brewer, I'm  

be

happy to see ya.

And

he he said, well, there's this meeting that I want

to attend, but

the work release facility

allow me to go there

for some reason.

I'd like to send you instead, if you got

time.

  📍 ​

 

And that's how I got connected to the incarcerated

workers organizing  

And through that

experience 

I had the privilege of

sitting around the table with maybe 50 community leaders. Um, that was, I mean our MC was Duwaba, for goodness

sakes. I don't know what his last name is, but

We told the new administration the DOC enough is enough. We're asking for

you to

decarcerate, Minnesota And I

had a chance to share my personal experience

with the administration there and then I also

shared an undergraduate proposal that I wrote

while I

was in prison 

with the Department of

Corrections

And I said, hey,

this is kind of one of my visions for what life could look like differently because

I thought about when I was in prison, how hard it was to get educated,

how hard it was to 

like do everything right when there was like some guy trying to

hustle you at the end of the block, you know, every day.

And it was always somebody,

you take one out, there's another one pop up there every single time, you know,

and

And so, through that experience that proposal was then championed by the Department of Corrections that I wrote.

That's awesome. And it was passed into law last year and that is called MRRA,

Minnesota Rehabilitation  Reinvestment Act Which I love because if

they implement it like they should, then my husband will come home in a year and a half instead of seven  Well, and my whole premise was 

if you remain nonviolent while you're incarcerated,

Which, it's really simple enough if you put your

mind to it.

If somebody

calls you the b word,

you let it go and you use it

as a motivator to even work harder on the positive things you're working  

And

then two, obtain some type

of accomplishment. And we really want to push guys that are struggling

with GED. If there's something blocking

you from your

GED, let your needs be known. I don't care if we have 15 staff help you get that GED. If you can get it in six weeks, let's get it in

six weeks and be done with it

and move on with our lives.

And

I'm so,

so passionate about that. Somehow we gotta figure that out because it's one of those places where people get stuck. And plus really 

help expound and and

really reveal folks

inside incarceration that have

serious shortcomings. And we really 

want to support

those people

with shortcomings. 

So important to just

support people with your, I mean, isn't that a radical idea? Right. I mean, it's and so I'm

super like, that's one

of my

passions that I've been working

on through this

whole process and kind of

a

vision that has came to

fruition. Like you mentioned, it

has not been implemented yet. But it's a

very serious thing. And so

with serious

things, I support,  Being very intentional and not making any egregious errors as we're  it, 

which is

one of my favorite reasons  To support it. Not that only that I had a big hand it I mean there was other people's ideas that were similar that

were also inputted So I don't want to know

and I was thinking about that on

way here.

Is

that there's

no  There's nothing that one person has done,

you know, there's always a story behind it. There's always 2, 000 people behind everything that one person has done, always. And so, you know, I like to marvel in, in my participation

the

MRA,

I have to recognize

the DOC

staff that

were employed for

two years to work at it, you know, and all these other people, but

I do

like to be a voice, right?

Now my current work there

was a meeting with the commissioner. 

May 

Challenges and Triumphs in Providing Housing for the Formerly Incarcerated

21st,  2021.  think about May 21st, 2021.

That was seven 

days before 

Minneapolis,  had a 

a little tough time. 

  

  📍 ​

 So

we had this meeting with the commissioner and he, we were arguing and asking why we can't expand work release.

And he said that

there is a disproportionality

disproportionality

that

is just a reality. It's just a

fact

That people

in the inner city and from poverty filled neighborhoods would not qualify

for work release that people from affluent communities or from the urban areas would qualify. So it would

be 

there would be a 77 percent disproportionality to the 

implementation  percent work release  And

so, My response to that wasn't this isn't fair or anything like that.

I was like, all right, well,

I'll create the housing for

them to get out.

That was my solution, right?

And so I

found

Myself

some

sweaty investment back

room

situation where these guys want to invest in slot machines in Wisconsin.

And I said, why

invest in slot machines in Wisconsin when we could provide more housing for people that need it

And the response was, is there money?  It's always money and property 

Yes. There's plenty. No, I didn't know, but I was like, yes, there is about it later. And so, 

That group ended up doing all the footwork. They researched the

whole thing. They basically created this huge plan

and They offered it to me on

a silver platter and was like, Hey.

We'll, you know, spend a

million dollars on housing.

We'll do this if you

are willing to take on the project. And so I did. And for the first

year

I

housed, the 

the first year, I mainly focused on 18

to 24 year olds.

And I had a 12 bedroom house. in the heart of North

Minneapolis. 

with 18 

18 to 24 year olds that were coming out

of prison and had problematic substance uses and mental health

issues. 

So,

as you can imagine,

I felt

like a circus

exister for quite some time. I

was going to detox

every three

days. 

There was a lot of slapping on the wrist involved. But I really enjoyed

Doing

honest work with

youth, like, that really,  

like, these

dudes, like either their PO is taking

advantage of them,

Their mom is taking advantage of codependency. Something's

going on and I just

loved. 

  Having those breakthroughs

and the breakthrough. And I mean,

even,

and it's crazy cause

it's like, you deal with this

kid and he's been homeless forever and all these things. And then one

day he's like,

will you take

me to my dad's house? And it's like

this huge mansion on Maple Grove Lake, whatchamacallit.

And

it's like,

What

is going on here? And you could see it from a distance.

You could see it from a

hundred feet

why he's in

his situation

and why, and For

me,  it's more about just being a supporter being somebody that

supports them, listens to them, and then

I try

and

utilize my authority

for sanction In a way

that will actually create change.

So for

example, if housing isn't the issue, right? Well then,

what is it

that's going to motivate you

to ending, you know,

An extreme use and I found that keeping

people that are using hard drugs

out of the house is rule

number one

because what'll happen is

I'll bring

guys

that are all trying to change their life and I'll bring one guy that's

I can sell

all five of these guys drugs and it's like, wait,  get out, you know, and that's like, respectfully, you

can't stay here.

You can't sell drugs here. And I remember the

guy that I brought

in there. Yeah. He wanted to.

He

was

to sell the

guy drugs. He brought in Percocets back when that was a thing. And I

was like, you can't I have to leave their names out of it, but you can't.

you can't sell

drugs to the other residents.

I'm sorry.  And it was a new thing for them. It was like, what? No, I, this is what I do, you know? And it's like, listen, man,

I

sell drugs.

You can't do

it here.

I know what selling drugs

looks like.

I'm

not slow, 

You know, but tow your Cadillac

out of the back because I

know you're

selling drugs out of it, you know?

And it was it was such a time in my life.

I would, at the time

I was working on. a city councilman's re election campaign and I got

knock every

door

of part of the city and have real

conversations with Minneapolis people that were concerned about things that happened in 2021, COVID, etc. And I got to have

heartfelt

conversations and then like I remember like one young man You

he's

talking about work and

like that, and I

just had no answer for him.

So I put him in the car, and we drove around the north side,

and I pointed

at the roofs.

And I said, you see that roof? That roof needs to get replaced.

You see that roof? That's a new

roof.

Do you see the difference? Well, I kind of see

the difference, and by the end of the afternoon, he could tell the difference between

A new roof and a

broken roof.

And it

was like such a small thing, but

a 19 year old

kid that's trying

get up drugs,

Just to have the skill, you know,

he doesn't

ever have to

use it, but the joy

and the professionalism that

gets instilled to him is, and the fact that he was

open to receive it  that's, that was like

huge

part

of my work. 

and that was kind of like my integral

kind

of learning stage of this providing housing

piece.  And then from there I transformed into 

24, 26 beds instead of 12. So I had, I ended up,

I did so well the first year

they grabbed an apartment building to

on

to the experience.

And at that

point now all of these external.

People you'd never heard of come out

of the woodwork to communicate

you

because

you're competing

in their industry.

And a lot

of that was like, not appetizing. I'm

it like,

cause I'm just trying to like help people,

you know, like, and

the money

isn't

really there, but it was enough to like,

you know, pay my mortgage and it was enough

to pay for my insurance for my car.

And,

or

at the time I had a pickup

Just pay for stuff.  These other people in the industry like started coming at me on all

these strategies

on how you

be more

of this or

do

more of that.

And

it was like, 

what is going on here? And I

remember

this one group, they wanted to contract with me and they offered me more to help them with this thing than the other company

would.

And I was like, well, sure, why not? You know?

And so, I sent two of my guys

that were in my

over to

their program.

And the next day They

reported

that I had

bedbugs in my house and they

took both the guys in the middle of the

night and move them

one of

their houses. And it was like a, literally like a

shady power money grab thing.

And then

I had to like have

meeting with all these representatives from Hennepin County and the department of corrections. I

was like, everybody come to the house.

There

are no bedbugs, please. Everyone can come

like, and I

had to like go through this huge process. And it was just insane. Like, I couldn't imagine.

Like I was just trying

to help people, man, you know, 

could you imagine? 

  📍 ​

 I

don't want to deal with corporate America,

But the truth is that the more you help people, the more

part of that system you're affecting, the

So my choice

is, like,

for example, I would

fight with P.

O. s. I'd be like, you're not going to violate this dude because he is off of probation today and still hasn't completed treatment.

He completed a

treatment a

year ago, so I

don't know why you're trying to violate him. And I, the P. O. would argue with me, I would call the

O.

supervisor, they'd release

off

of parole.

And I'd help him get to his mom's house in Kentucky with his newborn child,

which is where he should

be instead of in a sober house, because he has

a

destiny that he has chosen as a young man.

we

want to support that. 

  📍 ​

 One of the first things I thought of, one of the first. Verses,  hopefully I can find it 

quickly. But you were talking

about

Understanding what is true and

which narratives and maybe questioning those things. And Jesus talked

exactly about

that 

to his disciples. And let's see if I can  find

it quickly. 

  📍 He says, and

this is Mark chapter four

verse 24, Jesus

said to them, be careful what you are hearing the measure of the thought and study

you give to

the truth you hear will be the measure of virtue and knowledge that comes back

you.



And

so 

the

idea that   be careful what you're accepting as truth

and

who you're listening to for that truth.

And Jesus was saying,

you might end up with nothing  even though you think you've been filled. So I'm just 

thinking about that discernment as you're

talking,

you have

invested a lot of yourself

into providing  real

help  people that you serve and

I'm really Enjoying listening to you talk

because I will benefit from MRA, hopefully.  Well, I think that is

probably the end of our time here.

So I'm gonna

wrap it

up, but I want to thank you again

for

being here and

Maybe have you back sometime as MRA is

implemented.

we can talk

more about that.

of these other things that you're

doing, I'm enjoying hearing about it.

and for everybody that's watching 

if you like this episode, you can find more episodes like it

on my website holly bot.

me and thank you for

being here with us. 

 Look for more episodes that inspire@hollybot.me. Until next time, remember, your story is never over. God's grace is always waiting to rewrite it. This is from Surviving to Living.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 ​