Opening Musical Introduction   Setting Up the Interview   Introduction to the Spotlight Series 📍 Welcome to From Surviving to Living, the Spotlight Series. And I am here today with a wonderful guest who has become a friend over the past year. His name is David and we are going to be talking about social stigma related to incarceration and how that can be overcome. And how the listeners watching today can work themselves to contribute to a more empathetic society and have some meaningful change and understanding between different groups of people, especially related to crime and incarceration. So, with that, Dave, David, would you give me a little bit of information about who you are and where you're from and what you do? the first step that led you towards thinking about all of these things for yourself? Yeah.   📍 ​   David's Journey: From Bullying to Social Awareness 📍 So my name is David Boehnke. Um, I grew up in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and um, I have two brothers. My parents are in public health. Um, and I think the first thing that actually got me thinking about this stuff was getting bullied as a kid. Um, and you know, no one likes getting bullied. And when that happens to you, um, you start asking questions.   📍 I think that's the first time I was like, why is the world like this? Um, and half my family is Jewish, so part of getting bullied over a series of years made me start asking, like, why does bullying happen? And I think a lot of people, we go to our roots to think about what's going on with us, and in my case, that opened up a whole history that I wasn't really aware of. Um, and so that, that's become like a reference point in my life, if that makes sense.   📍 And also a way in which I can look at other people's experiences and be, have like a a mirror to look at my own and compare them, if that makes sense. Um, and then in terms of then wanting to do something about it, because I was a kid, you know what I mean? I wasn't really thinking about changing the world. I was just thinking about getting away, you know? Exploring the Roots of Incarceration and Social Stigma   📍 ​   📍 Um, I played a lot of basketball and video games, it's like a, okay, um, but halfway through high school, um, I fell into a youth group that was kind of like, school sucks, we should make it better, and I was like, yeah, it does suck, like, how do we make it better? Um, and, yeah, so I got really involved in that, and I had a, I was in a conversation with that youth group, and someone asked us, when did we know when we were going to go to college, or when we were going to go to prison? So, or rather, they asked, when did we know who was going to college and who was going to prison? And, you know, I was 17, my peers were 17 or 18, and we concluded that we knew by the time we were 10 who was going to college and who was going to prison. And that was really crazy, because in my high school, we had three types of classes. There was, like, pre college classes, there was regular classes, and there was remedial classes. And, you know, the first group which I was in was going to, like, fancy colleges. That was the second class. Um, and was going to state schools and the third group was going to prison. And it was literally that obvious. And I lived in a town that at the time was about 90 percent white and 10 percent black. And the remedial classes were probably 90 percent black and 10 percent white. And so, that was really shocking to like, be like, confronted with that reality. Because I, you know, I never really thought about, well, where did my peers go from elementary school? Why didn't they have my classes anymore? Um, and then it became really obvious. And then that became really not okay. Um, and, you know, thinking about being bullied, like, it's one thing if an individual is bullied, but when you see a whole group of people being bullied, it's like, what is going on?   📍 And then the craziest thing for me personally is, you know, anti racist liberal bubble kind of like Minneapolis and people. pretend to be very anti racist. And so we took this analysis to the adults who'd been supporting us. They told us that that wasn't changing. And so that was like, Oh, well, who isn't okay with this? Cause I'm not okay with this, but apparently everyone here is. And you know, I was a kid, so everything feels a little more dramatic. You know what I mean? Um, but, um, yeah, that was, I think that was the moment when I started to understand what it meant to be me in the society and also that I wasn't okay Um, with just kind of going along with how things are. The   📍 status quo for you. And so I'm curious, based on that youth group that you were in and this experience you're having, did they start to provide solutions to the answers to the question if you didn't like it? Or where'd you go from there?   📍 ​ College Years and Deepening Understanding    📍 Yeah, so we, we started, so I, this was, this happened halfway through my senior year of high school. Um, and so we started doing focus groups with different students. Um, about their experience with race and racism in the schools, um, and then I graduated and left. Um, but I, but I came to Minneapolis and St. Paul, um, where I went to college, um, very upset, but also without an understanding of, like, why this was happening or, like, how it came to be. And I got a very good public school education, but I didn't learn really many truths about how this country was started. or continues or works, if that makes sense. So how did you investigate that? I guess I didn't ask, what was your major in college? Yeah, so I majored in what was called humanities, media, and cultural studies, which my mom said is the David Boehnke major. You know what I mean? It's just kind of whatever I want to take classes, um, which was great, um, in some ways. Um, but, um, so I, yeah,   📍 so I found some professors and some people who started talking about systems, you know, so they talked about, um, white supremacy and patriarchy and colonialism and imperialism, etc. And that's like giving me the tools to understand like how we got where we are now. Um, and, um, then as a student, I found other students who are really interested in changing things. Um, yeah.   📍 ​ Activism and Connecting with the Incarcerated Community    📍 And so you graduate from college and how did this directly morph into meeting people in prison because now you have so many people you are connected to in many different prisons and I am certain that people watching this right now have no idea how that would even begin for someone who wasn't there themself. Right, so actually in college I took a class called Schools and Prisons. And the first exercise is we saw a picture of a building and we have to guess if it was a school or a prison. And if you don't take a picture of a prison or a school with the barbed wire, you really can't tell if it was a school or a prison. Well, especially Shakopee Prison. Right, right. Um, and so, um, that really got me interested and I actually had an internship with the Restorative Justice Department at the Department of Corrections. If you imagine that, um, and, um, and so with that, I started doing some volunteering. I, I volunteered at Amicus, um, and with a, a group called Minkosa, which was a support system for people who committed sex crimes coming out of prison, um, and the Council on Crime and Justice at the time. And that started getting me connected to some folks, um, and it was also really clear really quickly for me that, like, what was being done and what needed to be done were, like, really far apart. And so, I tried to figure out, you know, who, particularly people who've been in prison, wanted to do something different. Um, and so briefly, there was actually a group, um, called Critical Resistance that wanted to start here. It's a national, uh, abolitionist group out of Oakland. You've probably heard of Angela Davis. She was one of the co founders of that group. Um, but, and so, I got involved in that because there were some people who'd been in prison in that.   📍 And I was like, cool, like, what do we do? Um, and, um, That was, that was interesting because we, we called a meeting and a bunch of people came. We had probably 50 people come. All the right people came. And all the people coming in were like, what are we going to do? And the people running the meeting were like, we're going to figure it out together. And they were like, oh, and then they never came back. And so,   📍 that was a lesson I learned for the future. Um, but basically after that, the work slowly fizzled. And, you know, I stopped having a direct connection with folks in prison. And as someone. Without that direct connection, it didn't feel like it made sense to continue doing work in that area. Um, and so I ended up getting sucked into union organizing and fast food, and then got fired out of that, and then started working in schools, which is kind of where I got started. Um, eventually became a high school teacher. Um, and then, as I was doing that work, and about the time I was getting my teaching license, a friend of a friend got out of prison and got in touch with a group I was in and was like, Hey. I just got out of prison. It is way too crazy. We have to do something about this. And the only way we're going to do something about this is people in prison and people in the community working across the wall to change things. And so, having at that point now done ten years of organizing work of various kinds, um, you know, labor organizing in fast food, racial and social justice work in the schools, um, community work of various kinds in the Phillips neighborhood, um, I was like, sign me up. Um, and so, um, yeah, we kind of teamed up to try to figure out what that looked like. Um, and that was kind of the seed that got me involved again and eventually really connected to folks in prison in Minnesota. The Impact of Personal Growth on Social Empathy   📍 ​   📍 So, so my question then for you is, did you find yourself, and I already know you, you are one of the most empathetic, non judgmental people. Lovely people I have ever met in my whole life. You're very, um, kind and accepting and a very generous person. You're very approachable, which I admire because I struggle to be approachable. You know, I, I have a lot of walls, right? But I just love, uh, how you present yourself and are loving to others. Did you notice in your work that, um, Other people began to feel more empathetic towards people in prison, like when you were in your college groups and the other organizing groups, that that had a positive effect on the people you were with. Yeah, well, I, yes, and also I guess I would say that I had to learn over time to let go of some walls, too. Um, and it's, what was really interesting for me, because I didn't grow up with people saying, oh, these types of people are bad, or those types of people are bad. Um, but I did grow up in a setting that was, like I mentioned, very racist, even though people didn't speak bad about other people. And I also grew up in a setting that was quite homophobic, even though, you know, again, officially people were all for it. But in terms of like how people, who people were around and how people felt, it was different. If that made sense? It does. And so, um, you know, it's taken me a long time to kind of adjust. how I feel in my body versus how I feel in my head. Um, and also to fill in all that, those gaps in the, the very good education I received supposedly, you know, about like how we actually got here.   📍 Because, you know, for me at least, it's, it's a lot easier to understand people if you know where you're, they're from and what they've been through. And obviously talking to people helps a lot and having real relationships with people. Um, yeah. So that's been a, that's been a long, I mean that's been multiple decades of meeting other people and learning other people's experiences and hearing what they're talking about and, you know, also like when we started, we had some internalized feelings of, of stigma that we, we didn't process. And so originally when we started actually, we were like, well we're not going to work with people with sex crimes in prison. And then. And through the process itself, it was very clear that, well, wait, if we believe everyone can change, then we have to believe everyone can change. And also, you know, we   📍 just met and started building with and having some of our court organizers being on the inside and outside people who'd committed sex crimes.   📍 And it was very clear, like, you know, this is something we need to let go of, you know. Um, but, but, um, but yeah, I mean, I think it's a process and I think it's like, um, You know, if you let people teach you, you will learn a lot of things, you know. Well, and I like what you said about hearing about the person and developing that before you form. opinions or holding off on those to really get to know people. I found that true. Even when I went to Shakopee prison, um, I didn't know what to expect, of course. And they give you your laundry bag of stuff and you head out to your unit. And all of a sudden I'm in general population and there were Women from the church bake sale there and grandmothers and high school cheerleader types. And I was just shocked that these were other inmates because I had this idea they would all look like they belong there. I don't think I knew what that meant, but this wasn't it. You know, and so understanding who people really are and how they got where they're at makes a very big difference. So then tell me, The organization that you are with now and a little bit about what it does.   📍 ​   📍 Yeah, so The Incarcerated Workers Organizing Committee: Goals and Actions the group is called the Incarcerated Workers Organizing Committee of the Twin Cities. Uh, I hope we change the name to Minnesota soon. Because we, we, we work with people all over Minnesota, both inside and outside of prison. Um, and, you know, the goal is to create a safer state by ending mass incarceration. Um, and, um, I can say more about why that makes sense to do both of those things together. Um, but basically what we are is we're a support system and an organizing system. So,   📍 we're people in prison and we now have people in every prison in Minnesota. Um, and we're loved ones on the outside, formerly incarcerated people on the outside. And we work across the wall to change things. So, that can be, you know, someone has been diagnosed with cancer and they've been told they need to have a surgery. For And it just navigates schedule, which happens tremendously a lot, unfortunately. Um, and so if they don't have anyone on the outside to complain, they can just be stuck and they can end up dying in prison. Um, so it can be anything from individual grievances, we would call them, to worrying about groups of things, to taking on a collective struggle. Like, um, at Shakopee, uh, a number of women of color, particularly black women, noticed that they weren't being allowed into the boot camp there. And so they said, wait. Wait, you weren't allowed either? Like, what's going on? And so they got together, and we supported them, and we got their families together, and we started contacting the DOC, and eventually we had a press conference, and the commissioner came and apologized, and they all got on the boot camp. Um, but, um, you know, the commissioner also didn't act when we sent those initial letters. You know what I mean? So, you know, it's, it's, it's, um, You know, so that would be a, like, what we call a mini campaign, where people get together inside and out, they work on an issue, and they fight together to get a change. Um, and then we also have, you know, major campaigns, which are where the whole organization and people on the inside say, Okay, we're going to focus on this now.   📍 Um, and for our first two major campaigns, we've actually been able to shrink the prison system by 10% in Minnesota. Um, so there's, that's incredible. Yeah. So there's 1200 less people in prison on any given day in Minnesota because of the work that we've done. Um, and, you know, we're now trying to, you know, take, how do we take out the next 20%, the next 30%, the next 40%, um, and how do we do that in a way that actually makes our state safer, um, and moves the money and resources, um, to things that are gonna do that. Things that bring results and some of what you do or your organization does is legislative work.   📍 It's not just individual like you said but Big stuff. Can you talk a little bit about that and what you've had success with in that? Legislative Efforts and the Hope for Change   📍 ​   📍 Yeah, so we focus on DOC wide policies and then also on new laws And we've only done legislative stuff for the last two years because before then there's basically ten years of nothing getting done and But in the last Two years we've worked on some legislative stuff. Um, right now the piece of legislation that I'm most excited about is called the HOPE Act, which would allow everyone in prison to know they have a chance to come home alive. Um, it ends life without parole, it creates an independent medical release board, and it creates a clearer path for lifers to come home and be able to earn good time. Um, so I'm really excited about that, um, there's lots of family members that maybe you can talk to in the future who can tell you more about why that's important, you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, but,   📍 you know, that's, that's really important to me and I think, um, If we allow everyone in prison to work together to become better, to come home, we start having a culture of change, and that's what we need out here, and that's what we need in there. Um, in terms of those campaigns, we had a big campaign to get people home for COVID 19. Um, we got 450 people home in the process. Um, and then we had a campaign to stop people from being sent back to prison on petty violations like becoming homeless, testing positive for alcohol or marijuana, um, not having a job fast enough. Um, and those cut those violations in half. Um, so, you know, we'd still like that to be a hundred percent.   📍 Some of the things that I have discovered now that I have participated in IWOC and the meetings and things, and I know this from experience, is incarcerated individuals come from families that weren't perfect, that were already struggling. And they just happened to be the person who committed the crime, but the rest of the family Has issues and I don't mean that in a negative way. It could be financial. It could be mental health issues and all of those get in the way of their family advocating. for them. I know when I was in Shakopee that women who had family members call in when there was a problem, they received immediate resolution and other inmates that simply advocated for themselves without outside help, you would never get any resolution. It didn't matter. They only feared the family calling in and complaining and then there was an action. And so in meeting with your organization, which includes. Family members and encourages friends and family to get involved is how to motivate them to be involved and overcome the life that they're currently living. Yeah, I mean, people who have people in prison tend to have a lot going on. And so, um, we definitely try to make it as easy as possible for them to take leadership.   📍 Because also, just like people in prison, people during time with their loved ones, they know what needs to change. Yeah. You know what I mean? They've seen it, they've experienced it.   📍 And so it's really important for folks like that to have a say and to have leadership. And also we have to expect people to, to weed in a way that they can, you know? So, um, you know, we have a training on how to respond to grievances that's been useful. We need to keep building, uh, more people into. Um, we also have meetings by facility now, um, so people can really focus on, this is what's going on with my loved ones and I want to help in that way. Um, and then also, as much as we can, we try to create work that's specific to what people want to do. So, you know, some people might want to do legislative stuff, but they want, might want to do stuff about visitation or early release or visitation, you know, you know what I mean? Like, like it makes sense for them to focus. And so then they don't have to hear about what everyone else is doing. You know, um, so we try to have like levels of involvement, if that makes sense, so that people who have less time can focus on something that's valuable to them. And then they have a reason to be there. We don't want to have people spending a lot of time on things that they don't care about or that they can't connect the dots with initially. And so what are the many different ways that people can be involved, the different groups or aspects? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. People can be involved in a facility support committee, which is focused on supporting people in one facility. Um, though if they're going to do that, they need to have at least a one year commitment or have loved ones there. Um, people can be involved in community outreach. Um, so getting their friends and family and community involved and aware with what's going on in our prisons. And once you learn what's going on in our prisons, it's pretty hard to want to stop. Stop. Um, quite a number of people know. Um, people can also do communications work. Um, so that can be, um, social media work, that can be mainstream media work, that can be, um, kind of like what we're doing here. Yes. Um, and, uh, there's also then, uh, a grievance team that works with people who don't have loved ones, um, to try to support people to get the kind of response that they need. And then finally, there's that legislative component. Um, so yeah, um, and, you know, I wish we could have a simpler organization, but to, to move big systems like mass incarceration in our prison system, you really need to have all these different, Approaches working together. So I have a question for you. Personal Reflections and Encouraging Community Involvement   📍 ​   📍 After this journey, which has been, you know, school then college and then the ten years and the different things and beyond, looking back, how do you think your work has affected you personally? What is your attitude as you look back towards all of that? Yeah, I mean, I mean, I've changed a lot as a person. It's kind of hard to see exactly how it is, because it's like, you know, you change a little bit every day and then you're like, whoo, um, but, um, yeah, I mean,   📍 I went from being a person who knew nothing about prison and no one in prison, um, who didn't really understand the criminal justice system at all, um, to being someone who's. Working with people on a daily basis, who's helping solve all sorts of different problems from little to big, um, and, um, who's also, you know, I've always been someone who's curious about why things are the way they are,   📍 and so it's also been really fascinating to learn from, you know, hundreds of people about what they think it will take to change these types of systems, um, because we know that, you know, Mass incarceration is not making us safer, and we might know that Minnesota spends 60, 000 a year per person incarcerated, and we might know that people in prison are paid pennies an hour, you know, it's legally slavery, um, and what do we do with these things? You know, what do we do with the fact that people are set up to come out and fail? You know, like, like, why, how, how, how do we change these things? And, and also, I guess, you know, for people who are new, like, Why do we accept it? You know what I mean? And I guess I would ask that of anyone, even people who don't know that much about the prison system, but know that there's something wrong. Like, what allows each of us to accept that this is okay?   📍 ​   📍 Yep. It's interesting the things you talk about. In my own blog, I like to do historical research and add that component to my writings and so I went to look at the population of Shakopee Prison since it was built and how it's increased over the years. I was so surprised, but I guess I shouldn't have been, to 90s, right when the War of Drugs began, that the population there went from about 100 women almost overnight. So 400 percent increase and we were at the legislative hearing earlier in the week and there was a man there who was talking about. the criminalization of drugs and let's decriminalize that some somewhat. And he said something so true. We need to question the war on drugs because our methods are not working. We have a bigger problem than we've ever had despite mass incarceration and all these other efforts. So there needs to be change. But questioning that or even making oneself aware, which is what you are doing. No, totally. And it's shocking to look at how much incarceration has increased. And. And like you're saying, I mean, we've seen like a 500 percent increase in our lifetimes. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, we're kids or whatever, but like, that's crazy. Um, and it also really just, I hope it suggests to people that that means that we can see dramatic changes in our lifetime, right? Because we've already seen those, whether we were aware of them or not. Um, and that, like you're saying, it hasn't worked to make us safer. So, I, I hope that we can see dramatic changes in ways that do move us in the right direction. Um, whether that's around short term and, and, and drug crime, or whether that's around serious crime, um, because, um, you know, if we're not breaking cycles of violence and we're throwing people in violent situations and we're sending them out worse than they started or in, in a harder situation to survive, it's not something that's likely to reduce crime. No, it's not. And so, I'm just gonna check my notes, see if there's anything I missed that I wanna ask you about here. Um, Oh, can you please tell everyone the contact information, where they can go to find out more about IWOC and get involved?   📍 ​   📍 Yeah, for sure. So, again, we're all volunteer group, lead group, so like, we will succeed when people get involved. And we will have more power to take on bigger things when that happens, um, so people can reach us in all the ways. Um, we're at Facebook at Facebook. com slash IWOC. We're at TC IWOC on Instagram and TikTok and Twitter that we don't use a Twitter right now very much, but hopefully that will start. Um, and you can also call us at 612 524 8867. Um, and you can also email us at tc. iwoc at gmail. com. And a question for you. You have. Times when inmates can call. Yes. And, and, is that the number that an inmate would use? Yes, so, people in prison can, I, I gave the same number. So, um, yeah, people in prison, I have office hours every Sunday from noon to 4. 30 p. m. So people can call me, um, from Minnesota Prisons, please, at 612 524 8867 and you should tell people that I'll just be by the phone. The only reason I wouldn't pick up is if I'm already on the phone with someone else in prison. Sometimes I get a bunch of calls all at once, sometimes I don't. Um, but yeah, and then, I guess I would also say that, um, It's great to talk with people in prison directly, and also if people want the system to change, if they have loved ones in prison, they really need to get involved. Because there's a lot of things, as you know better than me, that you can't accomplish when you're incarcerated by yourself. You can know what needs to change, you can file the right paperwork, you can document the right things, but it's very, very hard to make those changes, um, unless you have people on the outside who can make noise. Um, or who can call or show up or email. And some of the things that, uh, someone who's incarcerated can do when they call you is Correct me if I'm wrong, but they can record a testimony or something that you can use. Yeah, so people in, yeah, so when they call, they can, they can share problems and solutions and we can mutually strategize on what to do. They can record testimony. Um, they can work to write a newspaper article, get published, there's a number of, um, local newspapers, um, shout out in particular to Spokesman Recorder, um, who are really interested in publishing people's stuff from prison. Um, we can also make plans for them to contact legislators, or community leaders, or others. Um, and we can also make plans for them to involve their people on the outside or on the inside in making change. Um, Because again, you know, we really believe that we will make change in partnership with people on the inside, um, and so often actually will officially have change but it won't show up in prison until people in prison are like, hey, we, we heard this and now we have to make it happen. Um, but it is much easier to fight for something once it is policy or law than when it's just a good idea. Um, but it does tend to take months, sometimes even more, um, to force the prison, um, to do what they say they were going to do or do what the law says. And so, uh, I think that in talking about all of this, I want to encourage everybody who's watching, um, to get involved on some level of, uh, Changing their intentionally changing their own stigma of how they might think about people in prison and that doesn't start just by wishing it away. It starts by meeting people and becoming involved in their lives and caring about the outcome. of their lives. And once a person has done that, they want to see all of the effort that they're putting into this relationship bear fruit. You know, and helping people. And so I want to encourage everybody to think about getting involved in that way.   📍 ​   📍 And we've talked about some ways that people who don't even know someone in prison can start to understand what the needs are. And there's many different ways. The social media communications team legislation testifying at legislative hearings in order to provide experience and why these laws are good. And so thank you. Closing Remarks and Future Initiatives I have one more thing I want to shout out in terms of an opportunity. Um, fingers crossed we're going to get a couple thousand dollars to send books to people in prison. Um, and our plan is to have an inside outside book group. So if you're someone who doesn't know anyone in prison or doesn't know anything about prison, Um, we're going to start signing up people this summer for the fall to have a book group where you read a book and someone in prison reads the same book. And when you talk on the phone once a week, and then you also talk with people on the outside, so we're really hoping to get more people, um, some basic knowledge about how the system works, how it came about, and then to connect them directly and build a relationship with someone on the inside who's, you know, maybe knows some of those things, but also is learning some of the history and some of the statistics, um, so that we can work across the wall. Um, to change things at the legislature, to change things at DOC policy. So I'm, I'm pretty excited about that opportunity, um, and I'm, I'm hopeful that people will, will contact us and say, Hey, I want to, I want to do that. I think that's a great idea. Um, often people have trouble meeting new people, especially if they're an introvert and what are we going to talk about and how is this relationship going to go and providing opportunities like reading a book and we're going to talk about that. Well, now we know what we're going to talk about. We're not put on the spot. So to speak for sure, and can really develop a relationship in a normal way that people do instead of, I got 15 minutes, tell me about yourself. Well, that was the end of that, but we're doing activities together, so for sure appreciate. I like that. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming here today. Thank you for all you're doing and excited for all the different pieces, whether it's the podcast or the organizing or the testifying. You know what I mean? I am too. I am, you know, especially with my own husband in prison and he's got seven more years to do and um, I really appreciate it. Want all of the knowledge that I've gained to be helpful for him and all the people that he's with and all the people I left behind So let's make that change. Yes, let's make that change So thank you everyone for joining us And if you like this episode and want more great episodes like this visit my website at holly bot Dot me and thank you so much for watching Woo!   📍 📍 📍 ​   Look for more episodes that inspire at hollybot.me. Until next time, remember, your story is never over. God's grace is always waiting to rewrite it. This is from Surviving to Living.