Christina's Personal Journey and Challenges β€Š πŸ“ So welcome to from surviving to living the spotlight edition. I'm Holly Bot and we have a wonderful β€Šguest, Christina with us today. And we are going to be talking about important question of how unconditional love, faith and mutual understanding can interact in order to provide good relationships, have compassionate relationships with people, β€Šso, Christina, please tell me a little bit about who you are and where you're from and how you have experienced The negative aspect of everything that I just said that led you to take some action. β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€Š I'm Cristina Lusk. Uh, I was, uh, born in Rochester, Minnesota. Um, my grandfather was a sportscaster for the TV station and did the cancer telethon for like 40 years and stuff like that. But um, I graduated in 1984, um, and my experience in high school was, you know, because I was holding a secret inside of me. You know, because when I came out it finally in 2008. Um, it was 'heard of' when I grew up in the 70s and 80s It really wasn't a thing, you know, and I I kept all that inside of me For a very long time. β€ŠUm, I experienced Uh, when I came out finally, uh, I, I couldn't believe the hatred that was directed at me because I wanted to, to wear, I felt better in a dress than I did pretending to be a man. Experiences of Discrimination and Finding Acceptance Tell me some of the experiences you had that really surprised you. Um, I was living β€Šup in Deer River, Minnesota. β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€ŠAnd I, I was the only, most of the guys out there, uh, wear a blaze orange and have guns and fishing poles, you know. Uh, they've never seen anybody like me. Um, even the police did not like me. They came to the house I was living in when I wasn't there and talked to the owner and said that I needed to go to get out of that town. Did you ever find any? Were you surprised by anybody that didn't have that response? What I'm asking, I guess, is did you ever find people who were very accepting and loving towards you in the dramatic opposite way and did that surprise you as well? Yes, uh, the Native, uh, Native Americans, uh, they welcomed me. They had no animosity towards me. I, and the women. The women accepted me and, um, and the men hated me because the women accepted me. It was, I had guys come up to me and tell me, I have to leave. This is when I was drinking in the bar and get out, you know, because I was over there talking to their girlfriends and we were having a good time and laughing. Well, they don't like that, you know, I was in a dress. So I, you know, I, I couldn't believe that. I was so stigmatized just because of what I was wearing and how I presented myself. Right, and, and that people wouldn't want to get to know you for who you are and, um, just be kind. I think of what you're saying is just a complete lack of Kind and unwillingness to be kind not even going to try just that's a closed door and even worse It sounds like they closed that door. So now they don't even want you on the other side of the door Just go somewhere else right disappear Disappear disappear. We don't want to see you, you know, go back in here wherever it is. You go, please go there And for me to do that, I I just didn't think it was fair You Um, when I finally realized that, you know, maybe I should stick up for myself and, and not listen to their, their hatred and, and, and their comments when I walk by and stuff like that. And I, I met a guy there, um, that became one of my friends, but he had no idea about transgender women and, and, but he gave me a, a chance, you know, and we got along great. But the other, so many other people that would not change their look about who I was or anything. And they didn't know me, they wouldn't talk to me, anything like that, so. I'm assuming this happened at work as well as where you lived. It was in all areas of your life, did you find it? β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€ŠUm, well when I came out in 2008, from there forward when I started dressing and presenting myself of who I am. It started right there and it has never stopped. Incarceration Experiences and Fighting for Rights So then tell me a little bit about, um, your journey where you found yourself incarcerated and then. What that looked like because that must have been pretty scary having already had negative experiences in your life, and now you're Incarcerated and so how did that go for you? I was incarcerated. I had a DWI felony DWI Because I drank a lot to hide put up a shield and give me strength β€ŠIt gave me a bravado, you know, per se. Um, and it happens to a lot of people, when they drink, they get a little bold. Um, and it gives you strength, you know, to try to persevere. Um, so, uh, I, you know, I, I struggled with that. I got a DWI. I went to prison. Um, I didn't think I had any rights. I had, I, you know, I, I just didn't. And so I had to deal with how they treated me in prison. Um, and then when I got out, I did get breast augmentation in 2018. Um, when I got arrested on the last charge, uh, I went to Moose Lake prison and that was in 2019. And, um, they put me in with, uh, seven other men. In one room? In one room. Absolutely. β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€ŠThere was no privacy whatsoever. Uh, the bathrooms, I would have to share with these men. I couldn't change in there because the doors are always open and there's only half walls. You can't do anything. So, um, you know, that was a real struggle for me. I, uh, in 2019 in this room, um, I contemplated suicide.β€Š from a traumatic experience that happened. And as soon as you say the word suicide, you, they hem you up quick. They take everything you own. They put you in a room with a shred proof gown and they leave you in there. With nothing. No β€Šbooks, no nothing. Not even toilet paper. They did gimme toilet paper, , . So I was fortunate in that, in that respect, I guess. But, um. While I was in there, I prayed. I prayed hard. I was in there for five days with nothing, no shower, no, nothing except for food and, um, and medication. But I prayed for strength to persevere and fight. And, and I kept my faith and I asked for strength. I asked for any thing I could do to get, get that power. Inside of me to carry on because I decided that I have rights, um, and I need to make sure that I exercise those rights. Yeah, you don't want to find yourself on suicide watch again. You want to be healthy and you want to be safe. Yes, I do. And the thing of it is, I'm still human being, you know, why would, because I identify as a woman, Um, and why would it be so hard for people to just, you know, if I don't affect your life, walk by. If you don't want to talk to me, walk by. But leave me alone. You know, and being in the men's prison is absolutely horrible. You are alone. Very rarely get anybody to talk to because if you talk to somebody when they're not around their friends, now all of a sudden they think it's a sexual thing going on and that's why they're talking to me. So if their friends see them talking to me up close, Uh, for any more than, I don't know, five seconds, uh, you know, they, they roused them. They, you know, they just totally alienated me, um, in the men's prison. β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€ŠHow long were you at Moose Lake? I was at Moose Lake four and a half years. Transition to Women's Prison and Legal Battles And then, what led to you being moved out of Moose Lake to a different prison? Well, uh, when I was in the Moose Lake prison. Um, some people go to prison for life and they don't have, uh, maybe five different room changes. I had 41, um, room changes. Uh, from, I'd go from seven guys to, uh, to five, uh, four. Um, they wouldn't give me a single cell for a year and a half. Um, even though I was single cell restricted, they didn't care. It didn't matter to them, and they would not let me go into the, uh, into a single cell. So, um, what I did is I started, My fight, my journey, um, and I reached out to the Minnesota Department of Human Rights and they said there is definite rights violations, um, denying me any medical care, you know, even though I was, I was scheduled for surgery, getting scheduled for surgery, I was three weeks away and before I got arrested, um, so they would not see me about any of that. They would defer it for ever. Because they don't want to pay anything and I get that, you know, it's all about money in the DOC. It's not about rehabilitation that I have experienced. Um, so what, when that started, I talked to a gentleman at Justice Help and he referred me to Gender Justice. Jess Braverman was my attorney on record for my whole case and they picked it up immediately. And that started my, started the beginning of getting to where I am today. And so I would imagine that that connection just really gave you a lot of hope that things can change and looking maybe more forward to the future as opposed to what you just experienced with the suicide watch and poor treatment. Can you tell me a little bit about what that journey looked like moving forward after you met and started talking to these people? It did. It brought me great hope. You know, they, they realize I'm a person. I'm a, you know, I'm a living, breathing person and I have rights. Yes, I did break the law. OK, but I don't think you should be subhuman because you broke the law. You know, you pay, you do your consequences and do the best you can to make sure it doesn't happen again. And I've done that. Yeah, but gender justice helping me. Yeah, I, I didn't, I never asked for money in the beginning. I never said it had nothing to do with money, you know, at the end, everybody wants to make comments. Oh, well, she, she got all this money and all this stuff. Well, that wasn't my intention. My intention was to get treated humanly. Yeah, so then you were moved. You said you've been in every single prison in the state of Minnesota except for one, including Shakopee Prison. How long did it take to be moved then to Shakopee Prison? As the day I settled my case, I finished substance use treatment a week or two later, and they moved me immediately within two days. And how much of a different experience was that for you? Not just in terms of the campus and perhaps the, living circumstances, but the people that you met, the other women who were incarcerated. β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€ŠIt was, it was a wonderful experience with the other women. Um, the officers in the Minnesota Department of Corrections that, that if you win, like I won, uh, they think you're, you're taking it from their family. Um, they treated me horribly. Any excuse, go to my room, take all my stuff, throw me in segregation for, for little tiny things that they say, you know, that I broke a rule. It took them 10 days when I got there to get me into segregation, that quick. And, uh, It was totally unwarranted. I was sat in there for five days and I was released. No charges, no, nothing, no report, no, nothing. So that goes to show you why would you now? Why would that happen? Um, I had an officer when I was walking to eat. Um, at the women have to walk single file down, down the hallway. Um, the men don't absolutely not. It doesn't matter for the men. Uh, the men can hug, the men can shake hands. They can, all this stuff. The women are not allowed to do that. Um, I challenged one of the officers about walking right up against the wall. Um, when it's in the handbook, there's no rule that says you have to do that. And I said, well, would you please just show me in the rule book where it is? It's in there. Could he ever prove it? No. Does he work there anymore? No. You know, he said I was in wrong prison calling me, you know, my wrong pronouns and, um, hopefully he's gone forever, but I don't know. But he was very abusive to all the women, not just me. Um, so that really, started the whole thing because he was the one that started the thing to get me into segregation in the beginning because I challenged him and, uh, in the men's prison, they answer your kites. When you write to somebody, they send it back. The women's prison, absolutely not. The kites disappear. Um, if you try to, if you go on the law computer, which is very rarely open, um, and you want to have a copy, um, of something, you have to fill out a voucher. You have to pin it to it and send it to the library. The library sends it to you. to, uh, Faribault, they print it and then they send it back. So it goes through all these, these people that read everything. The men, it doesn't happen like that. Uh, the women, uh, they, if they're going to fight the DOC, they don't want it getting out and if it, and if it does get out, they want to know how they can combat it when. And somebody comes asking about those issues. β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€ŠSo I'm curious then now, how much time did you do at Shakopee as compared to the other places? I did, I think five months, five months. And they, they released me to a work release facility that was just as worse or as worse as going from the men's to the women's prison. Um, they. They put the women down in this basement, no windows. The windows that are in a couple of rooms are bolted shut. Uh, you know, there's nothing to see. There's a chain link fence outside the windows. My room had no windows. Um, and it, the men, they have a full workout room, big windows. It's, You know, it's nice, but the women absolutely not, you know, and that really amazed me that this could go on. It's so interesting the things that you say because you were able to experience both sides. I remember during my incarceration at Shakopee that there were rumors about how, uh, the men's prisons are and what they're like. And now that I'm, you Married and my husband is incarcerated. He shares with me the rumors that they hear about Shakopee prison and what it must be like But you were actually there to personally see those things and judge for yourself. It wasn't just rumor. Yeah, I Lived it. I live both sides The men they have vending machines, you know, you can get an ice cold pop anytime you want You know, and the women have nothing, no vending machines. Absolutely. You barely ever get your 40 limit of your canteen items. And they were out of shampoo for, you know, three weeks. You know, it's like you had to wash your hair with dishwashing soap. It was, it was, it amazes me that it continues to happen. And so if you were to give advice to, uh, other people in your situation or to the people who were unkind to you in order to make society a more compassionate place where people are kind regardless of, uh, their belief system or their political ideology, what do you think that you would say to begin to start that? β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€ŠWhen, when Trump, uh, took us out of the military, um, I, I, I just wanted to talk to him and ask him if, if a terrorist had a gun to his wife's head and I had a gun and I could stop the situation in a minute, would he want me to do it or would he just say, no, you're transgender. I, you gotta go. Of course not. I want everybody out there to imagine that scenario. Would you want me to come to the rescue or would you just? That's the way it is. What I see, I don't like, uh, even if it doesn't affect your life, why are you spreading hatred? And among us people that just want to love peace, happiness. We're not about any. You know, I have no violence on my record ever in my, in my life. Um, I'm a survivor of, uh, childhood trauma, sexual abuse. Um, and I, I kept that inside for a long, long time, but I want people to realize that for us to feel the way we feel in our hearts and in our souls is okay with us. If other people accept us, you would be amazed at what. can happen in your own lives. Um, you know, why, why would you want to stop progress? You know, positivity, you know, why would you want to stop that bread hatred? I don't, you know, so please open up to yourselves and, um, give us a chance. β€ŠThe advice I give to all of you out there that, um, have blessed me with listening and staying here, um, listening to everything I have, uh, gone through so far that I've acknowledged and, and told you about, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, Be kind, try to put yourself in their shoes. Um, any kind of difference, you know, uh, overweight people, how people judge them. Why are you judging them? Maybe there's something, a reason why they're the way they are. So think about and, and, and, and remember what if you were that person? What if your son or daughter was transgender? Would you disassociate? You know, ask yourself that question. Um, as soon as you start to realize gender dysphoria is real, and what it is, look it up, um, you'll understand a little bit more. Research before you throw hatred. β€ŠI learned this not that long ago, certainly as an adult, not as a child, but that it's possible to disagree without being a disagreeable ornery person. β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€Š And, you know, I'm, I'm a Christian and read the Bible and I love Jesus. the biggest, in fact, the only two commands that Jesus said that encompass all the others is love God and then love your neighbor as yourself. β€ŠJesus says, not just be affectionate, not just wave a nice high and go about your business. It says, love them as you love yourself. We tend to love ourselves pretty good, treat ourselves pretty good. β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€ŠAnd so before today, you and I haven't had the opportunity to get to know each other very well, but I'm glad that we have this chance to talk today. Life After Incarceration: Advocacy and Healing β€ŠAnd I want to turn to talking about now you've been released from Shakopee, what are you doing today β€Šwell, after the work release, um, because I know my rights, and I complained about the conditions that all the women were living in, and they found every reason under the sun to get me kicked out and return me to prison. Um, the Department of Corrections, when I did get a settlement, uh, they're not, they're not dumb. They wanted to get some of that money back somehow didn't matter how they sent me back to prison for two months Was that Shakopee prison? Yeah, I was in Shakopee. I went to the work release facility After and it was two months to the day. They sent me back to Shakopee two months to the day. I walked out Again, to, and I went to, uh, uh, uh, New Way Outpatient Treatment Center to deal with the trauma, the PTSD, all, all, all of the things that encompass, um, why I was the way I was, and, and how do I deal with all that in, in a positive manner. Um, I went to, uh, I live at Bright Spot. Um, it's a sober living facility. It's a house. It's a beautiful home. Um, I have great, the girls there are wonderful to me. Um, so that really has made a huge difference. β€ŠSo I deal with my trauma every single day from eight to noon, every single day. I was there this morning. Um, so a lot of people don't understand how much turmoil goes on inside of us. I mean, we're fighting every single day as a battle because people will just be rude. They throw stones. β€ŠThey will attack at any moment. β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€ŠAnd doesn't that make it a little, not a little, must be a lot more difficult when you're doing your own counseling and therapy and trying to work through that. It's just re traumatizing you, is that right? It, it brings up all those feelings. Um, when somebody starts, you know, bantering at me, it's fight or flight. Um, I've learned to fight. Um, I will, I will get away, um, in some instances, but I believe I should stand up for myself and the people like me. I think we all have a voice and I hope everybody out there lets us speak. β€ŠI don't think that being unkind promotes anything. It doesn't help somebody on their journey. And I want everybody I know to have good mental health, right? It makes my ability to have a relationship with them better. Right? It's really hard to be friends with somebody who's got serious mental illness that they are not dealing with, right? Because that's a barrier. And I certainly wouldn't want to put up additional barriers that makes it harder for them to get better. Yeah, β€ŠI'm curious, as you're telling your story, did you have family that was supportive or helpful for you, or even friends that felt like family that were along for the journey? I did, I did. My, uh, my family stepped up and did not judge who I was when I came out, and when I told them who I was, um, my dad, he, he's like, If that makes you good, go for it. My son, he, um, he said, you know, dad, if that makes you a better person, I'm behind you a hundred percent. You know, um, it took him about a week to process it. And then we discussed it. For a long time and he, and he finally came to the realization that, you know, I'm, I'm in it to win it, you know, β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€Š and do you think that that helped you then, um, to be healthy and strong throughout your prison experience in the lawsuit that you didn't stuff? For me, I had a lot of visitors. I was at Shakopee and I saw many women who had never had a visitor and been there for a long time. And I'm really certain that my family's support helped me throughout prison and after I left. Do you think that that was true for you as well? I had no visit. I never got a visit. When I was in, uh, from 2019 to when I got out in 2023, I didn't have a visit. My mom was in another state. Um, And my sister, she lives in Stillwater. My dad lives in Rochester. And it just didn't come, it didn't come to happen. But, um, I, I think for my family to come and see me is a wonderful thing. Um, I get it. It's, you know, you have to spend some money to get there. You have to, you know, you have to go through a lot at the Shakopee Prison to visit somebody. Um, and so by them not coming, um, I think affected me. Definitely. Um, I used to have to pay for the, you used to have to pay for phone calls. Um, so you, you're making 25 cents an hour. You know, your checks are six bucks. Um, how do you afford anything on 6 in two weeks? I have no idea, but you have to do it. You have no choice. They force you to live in poverty and, and hopefully you have somebody outside that will send you money. So you have some money on your books. Well, when that money comes in, they take 10%. So, all right, you know, 10 bucks out of every hundred. That means a lot when you make six bucks every two weeks. Um, so it's a real struggle, um, to, to make it through, especially the women's prison. But now the phone calls are free. Um, so I could call my, my family, uh, you know, a couple of times a week. You know, I, I, I understand that when you're out of prison, your life becomes more difficult. is your life. You're busy. You're doing this, doing that. I get that we're in prison doing nothing. And so we have nothing to occupy our minds. So, you know, we want to reach out as much as possible, but yeah, and then we get upset when they don't answer. You know, but I, but I get it, you know what I mean? Um, so I didn't bug my family, but they definitely answered and the, they would J pay me on email me on the J pay system. So yeah, that, that was a real help. As you're speaking, I'm thinking of some friends that are incarcerated that still call me and often when I answer, the first thing they say is thank you so much for answering. You're the. You're the fifth person I've called today, and you're the only one who answered. And that means so much. β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€Š Yeah. Well, the thing is, we've been in there, we've experienced it, and we know what happens to us after we are able to reach the outside world, discuss what's going on, hear what's going on with them. Of course, things that are happening to us are, you know, Nothing compared to what's going on outside, you know, and we have, and we have no outlet, um, to, to, so nothing changes when you call them, you don't, you lose what you, what are you going to talk about because nothing changes for us inside, you know, or the things that do change are the abuses. Yeah, you don't want conversations with your family the times you're able to get ahold of them to be focused on negative or upsetting things because they're going to stay with that for the rest of the day and worry about you and be sad for you and you don't want to leave them with that. So that's hard. It is. You know, I know it affected my mother. really bad. And so I felt sorry after I would call her, um, and tell her about what was going on with me, which is You know, when they start to feel how you're feeling, that's when it gets difficult. They feel your pain and you're suffering. Um, we always try to call when we have something positive happen to us, you know, so we brighten their day. Yeah. Um, not bring it down. So, yeah. I, I remember when I was incarcerated, I already felt my family was disappointed in me that I had ended up in prison, so when I called, I wanted to say, like you said, happy things, successful things, so that they would be cheered up despite where I was, and they would feel hope for my future, and like you said, it can be happy. challenging to find those things. Reflections on Compassion and Understanding And so, um, as we're finishing up talking, and we're coming kind of to the end of our time here, but in all that we have said, I think it's really important, I'm looking at my notes, things that I had written, finding things Common ground. And when I say that, I remember when I was at Shakopee, I had a roommate once who was very different from me with political views. And, um, we also did not get along in the room. I mean, she was, she is a wonderful person. However, she was very messy. And I like to be very clean, right? And so you come back to your room and instead of the nice clean room you left, it's a cluttered disaster. It was hard for me to decompress. She liked the blinds to be up. I like the blinds to be down. Try going to sleep and the sun hits you in the face first thing, and we could never agree on what to do. where the blind should be left. And so it was a struggle. Finally, I said, we need to resolve this. I don't want it to get, you know, angry. I don't want this to escalate. So there was a paper that Shakbi gave us to do. And the first part of the assignment in overcoming conflict was write 10 things about the other person that's similar to you. Okay. I thought I can do this. We're both moms. Got that right there. We're both women. That's easy. And all these things I go through and Then we were supposed to meet and share. So we meet, we share, and she had nothing. She couldn't even think of ten things that we, no common ground whatsoever. And I said, well, we both have kids. Oh, I didn't think of that. And so it can be really hard to find common ground and once you start to think about those things, it's so obvious that All of a sudden, it was so obvious to her. How did she, we're both incarcerated. We've got that. We share the same room. How about that? Our relationship became so much better after that. And so, um, I think we all should have friends that are in every kind of circumstance so that we can truly not be in living in the self contained selfish bubble and love other people. I want to thank you for. Coming here and sharing, well, the things about the men and women's prison is really helpful and I hope that, um, we can change so many things there, but also, um, allow people watching to know that friendship is important and, I don't know if you ever saw the movie Wonder, I don't want to be quoting pop psychology, but the theme of that was if there's a difference between being right or being kind, you should be kind. Absolutely, I agree. Yes, and so I hope that you will come visit us again in the future. I am curious to see what your Continued counseling and all of these things that you're experiencing in the great life that you are going to have That you will share that with us. Hopefully we will be able to talk about some successes that we've had in the prison system improving things β€Š It is possible. And if you don't give up, you can accomplish anything and think positively, work towards love, understanding, um, compassion, you know, feel how that think about how that other person feels. Um, and what they might be going through, uh, with what's happening and give them a chance and you give yourself a chance to open up your heart and see how, how it navigates in your own lives. I think that's wonderful. β€ŠThat's the end of our time for today, but thank you, Christina. And for all of you watching, for more great episodes like this where you can meet. interesting people and have a chance to be compassionate and understanding. You're going to find that at my website, holly bot dot me, and you'll want to listen to the end on every single one. You won't want to miss a word. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Have a great day. Yes. Have a great day. β€ŠI love that. Mm β€Š πŸ“ ​ β€Š Look for more episodes that inspire at hollybot.me. Until next time, remember, your story is never over. God's grace is always waiting to rewrite it. This is from Surviving to Living. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.